Showing posts with label marvel. Show all posts
Showing posts with label marvel. Show all posts

Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Looking Back With Vic Carrabotta

Vic Carrabotta is a relatively unknown name to the bulk of the comic buying public, but that's not due to the quality of his work, but rather the quantity. After meeting Stan Lee with a letter of reference from Jack Kirby, Vic began working at Timely in the early 1950s and remained there until the now famous 'Implosion' that saw many creators thrown out of work. Unlike the bulk of the artists from the Golden Age, once Vic left the comic book field in the late 1950s he never returned, instead forging a career in advertising, illustration, design and storyboards.

Once Vic left the comic book industry he never really looked back. Vic managed to parlay his illustration skills to excellent effect, becoming an award winning advertising illustrator and earning the nick-name 'Quick Vic' due to his speed in meeting deadlines. A short list of companies that have benefited from Vics conceptual and illustration skills can be found on his web-site, and they include companies such as Y & R, Grey Advertising, McCann-Erickson, Disney, Delta Airlines, Coca-Cola, AT&T Worldwide, General Motors, Palmolive, SCANA, Advil, Reader's Digest, Sunbeam, Ometric, Jell-O, Kenner Toys, and many more.

This interview was originally conducted in January of 2006. Since that time the tape was misplaced and I always believed that it'd been lost forever. Recently, due to a clean-up, I found the missing tape, along with a few others, buried at the bottomed of a box. Armed with the tape I did the transcript and now present it for the world to enjoy. And before anyone decides to send an email to the contrary, I'm more than happy to post an audio sample of certain sections...but until then - read and enjoy this insight into one of the more unknown of the Golden Age comic book artists!
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Daniel Best: How did you get started in comic books?
Vic Carrabotta: I’m probably one of the lesser comic book artists of the old days. I got out of comic books a long time ago. I started with Stan back in the mid ‘50s, so far back I can’t remember. [laughter] I’m 75 years old, although I’m pretty spry for my age and I’m still working. I ended up doing storyboards; there was more money in that than in comic books. I’ve done some stuff for a local guy, the Mecca Comic Group, just little things, no big time things though.

I was 21 years old when I started out in comic books. I lived in New York and I had just come back from the Marine Corp. I’d been in the United States Marine Corp for three years and I was a young kid, wet behind the ears and I didn’t know what I was going to do. I used to like to draw a lot as a kid and in fact one of my mentors as a kid was Jerry Grandenetti who worked with DC. Jerry was a couple of years older than I am and he was nice enough to teach me the inking and that kind of thing. My first wife was more inspirational for me for doing comics and she said, “Just get yourself together and do something with this talent.” I made some samples up and we canvassed New York city and went to every publishing house you could think of. One of them, of course, was Timely Comics which ended up being Marvel later on, but nothing really happened and I couldn’t get in to see anyone like Stan Lee. Finally my wife and I ended up with a cup of coffee walking the streets of New York and I got to see Jack Kirby. He’s really the one who got me started. My wife and I went over together to Jack Kirby’s office, which was then called Simon and Kirby, and Jack took me into his office and looked my stuff. My sat in the lobby and by this time she was about eight and half months pregnant. So I went into Jack’s office and he looked at my stuff and said, “Well this is nice,” because I was an amateur and I don’t think I was very good at the time. [laughter] So he walks out into the lobby and while he’s telling me, “You know Vic, your work is nice, but don’t call me, I’ll call you.” It was the old story, the brush off, and as he walked out my wife stood up and I said, “Jack, this is my wife Connie.” He looked her up and down and he did a double take and saw that she was pregnant and what ran across his mind was, “This poor guy, he needs work,” and he said, “How are you?” and introduced himself to my wife and said, “By the way, have you seen Stan Lee at Timely Comics?” I said, “Yes Jack, I went there but I couldn’t get to see Stan.” I was walking around with a pack full of amateurish work; I couldn’t even afford a proper portfolio. He said, “Well, wait a minute,” and he went back into his cubby hole and he writes a letter and sealed it and said, “Take this back to Stan now.” So I took it back to Stan and got past the secretary and I was sitting across the desk from Stan Lee. Stan was a very casual guy and had his feet up on the desk and he said, “Oh, Jack says you can draw this and that,” and I said, “Yes Stan, would you like to see me work?” and he said, “No, that’s ok. Here,” and he threw a script across the desk and said, “I want this back in a week.” And that was the beginning of my comic book career.

I never knew what was in the letter; obviously it was Jack telling Stan to help this poor guy. And that’s how I got started in comics. Had it not been for Jack Kirby I’d probably be laying bricks with my cousin or something. [laughter]

DB: What were Stan and Jack like back in the mid ‘50s?
VC: Jack Kirby was a heck of a nice guy. He was always a model guy and I felt sorry when he died. A very, very nice man. Stan was very nice too, he was a young guy and interested in what he was doing. At the time there was just a handful of guys, I was there, John Romita, Joe Maneely was there, there had to be at least eight to ten cartoonists working up at Timely during those days. Not that many. Stan had not even started Spider-Man. John had come over from Jack Kirby and was doing Captain America, so John Romita had more experience with the superheroes. I wanted to do superheroes but in those days superheroes were not big, so Stan would give me these horror stories and I did a lot of westerns. Ringo Kid, that kind of stuff. I worked with Stan for about five years and my wife, who was born in the South, wanted to go back to her home to her mother, she was young and didn’t like New York city so we left. Stan continued to send me work through the mail. So there I was, living on a farm, sitting out in the sunshine and drawing comic books [laughter], rolling them up and sending them out to New York. I also did some work for Charlie Biro and Lev Gleason.

I guess I worked with Stan for about five or six years and then things got pretty bad in the comic book field, the industry went downhill because of the horror stuff that was going on, which was nothing like it is today. Stan couldn’t send me any more work that point. He said, “Vic, I just can’t send you anything anymore. I’ve got guys that live here, like Gene Colan and John Romita and I can’t even give them work.” At that point that’s when I got out. I’d spent a total of five or six years doing comics with Stan.

From there I got out of comics altogether. I was living in the South and travelled to Atlanta and got a job in a printing house called Stein Printing Company. There were using me as an illustrator doing little booklets and I really learned the printing industry in those days. I learned typography and in those days nothing was computerized, it was just layouts, and from printing I ended up doing advertising and went back to Columbia and started up my own studio there and worked on my own all the time.

Then I went to New York and I went from doing my own advertising stuff to doing storyboards and became the senior Art Director with Alden Advertising Agency in New York. Again, I was jumping around; there were so many politics in advertising. My field of advertising was always up and down and one of the years I was out of work I was offered a job with Mother Earth News Magazine, the owner of that was John Shuttleworth and it was located in Henderson, North Carolina. I worked there, but that didn’t last too long, so I moved back to New York and worked for Reader’s Digest as an art director.

I finally ended up in Atlanta working as an art director with a company called BDA/BBDO, which still exists in New York and I became an accredited art director. I began winning awards in TV and print and the comic book field was past me at that point because I was winning awards. I always used to draw my own layouts and at the point I started to win awards I was propositioned to leave BDA/BBDO with a good friend of mine, Jonas Gold. Jonas told me, “Why don’t you just quit and work with me?” He was with an agency in Atlanta, McDonald and Little was the name of the place. So I started working with him on the side, just moonlighting and I finally quit my job with BDA/BBDO and began freelancing and did very well in Atlanta as well. Jonas got me into the field of storyboarding and I got the reputation and nickname of ‘Quick Vic’, which I use on my web-site, because I’m famous for drawing 100 frames in an hour [laughter] because when I draw I seldom use reference. Even now I don’t do it unless I have to do it. It’s the old comic book background; if you wanted to make money then you had to draw. Jonas then left Atlanta. He was my key man, where he went I’d follow, and he moved to West Port in Connecticut and was working in York City and he called me one day and said, “Vic, why don’t you come up? I’ve got a job for you.” I said, “Ok,” and packed my family up for a summer vacation thinking I’ll only be going for one job for Jonas. In those days you could work two days and make $15,000, and there was nothing unusual about that in the old days. There was far more money in those days in storyboarding than in comic books, so before you know it Jonas says, “Vic, why don’t you just stay here because I can use you all the time.” My wife went back to Atlanta and sold the house and I remained in New York. We finally ended up in West Port, Connecticut and I was making almost two to three hundred thousand dollars per year. It was wonderful, living in West Port with all these famous illustrators like Joe Ives and Bernie Fuchs. I had a beautiful home there; my house was a couple of blocks away from Phil Donahue. And that’s what I did. For the rest of my life I did storyboards. In New York I worked with numerous accounts like General Motors, AT&T Worldwide, Pepsi Cola, Coca Cola; I had a long list of accounts that I worked on and I worked creatively too. Sometimes I had storyboards but I did a lot of conceptual stuff as well. I did a lot of conceptual stuff with Pepsi Cola that I’m very proud of. I’m still doing it now. I’d go from New York to LA and back and worked for many people, including Disney. I did the original posters for 101 Dalmatians and got paid for that very well.

Finally I was in New York and I remarried and then 9-11 hit. It was just horrible and I guess we both panicked and we just got out of there. Nobody in the storyboard industry was even freelancing anymore because they were afraid to go into the city in case something happened. So, at that point, about a month after 9-11 we decided to go south to Columbia, South Carolina. My first wife lives here and five of my kids live here and we came down and I got a few little jobs, only storyboards, but it was bad all over. I still had one shot and I thought, maybe I’ll call my friend John Sabel at Disney, who I’d done the concept for 101 Dalmatians and see how he’s doing. So I phoned him and John said, “Yeah, come on out. I want you to work with me on Pirates Of The Caribbean.” I went out to California and worked with John on the Pirates Of The Caribbean posters and everything was fine. I worked with him for a month and he paid me over $10,000 which was wonderful, but I was out there for another three years and he never called me again. I know they had some problems with Disney, they were laying people off and strangely enough four or five years later he emailed me and asked, “How are you doing?” I was really surprised and I wrote him back, of course. He was a good friend and I liked him a lot.

The old comic book artists, well most of them are dead or they’ve moved on to other fields. In my case it’s a completely new generation as you know. Comics are computerized, some of it’s nice and some of it I just can’t put up with because a lot of these kids I think just don’t know how to draw. I have some friends who are doing work for Marvel, and they’re doing very well I guess, but the problem with me is that I am 75 and I don’t want to stop working. Want’s happened with the storyboard business, which is basically my field, is that my agents will not receive work for me on paper anymore; it’s all got to be done on computer. I was shunning away from that whole field because I said, “Yeah, Quick Vic, I can work faster than anyone with a stylus pen and a tablet,” and it’d drive me crazy. I have a computer and I’d scan it and send it off but they don’t accept that, they want that computerised look. I’m learning to use Photoshop and Corel Paint and my agents said, “If you can learnt to do stuff on the computer then we’ll send you work again,” so that whole field has completely changed. It doesn’t matter how good an illustrator you were they just won’t take stuff on paper anymore; it all has to be done on computer. That’s the way it is.

DB: There are some Fantastic Four illustrations on your site. What’s the story behind them?
VC: A friend of mine, Sanford Greene, who works for Marvel and who’s more of an animator than I am. He does the drawings on computer, the pencils, the inks and the colours. He was telling me, “Vic, if you want to start practicing now to get into comics then maybe you should start drawing character stuff,” and he suggested that I draw the Fantastic Four. I did two pieces, but I did it the old style, paper with magic markers, but its obsolete now, no-one uses markers.

DB: Do you see Stan Lee anymore?
VC: I call him every once in a while. He doesn’t forget who I am, he’ll say, “How ya doin’ Vic?” and I start talking about the people we knew and he’ll say, “My God, you’re still alive and you’ve got such a wonderful memory.” Stan’s memory is terrible [laughter] but he’s nice though. I’ve had lunch with him and tried to talk about the old days but you mention Jack Abel and that’s it. Jack did a lot of my inking. I started off doing my own inking but Jack did a lot, but these days a lot of those people aren’t around anymore. Years ago when I worked with Stan I used to bring him into the Cartoonists and Illustrators Club and I remember going in one evening and walking up to the bar and meeting Al Williamson and Wally Wood. These are things I’ll never forget. Ross Andru, you mentioned him, I only met him once and he was playing great jazz piano, he was a very talented guy. Joe Maneely was a really nice guy. When I met Joe he was an in-house artist. Every time I’d go to deliver my work to Stan Joe would always be there doing mostly war stories that I remember. He was always on the premises and he was Stan’s favourite. He was a very nice guy. Joe Kubert, Joe Letterese, Mike Sekowsky, they were always there, George Tuska, Gene Colan, Alex Toth they were all my mentors. Alex, if you’ll excuse the expression, was a real prick. [laughter] I called Alex up several times, never met him, but I always admired his work and lot of my stuff used to look like Alex’s because I used to copy his stuff. We all used to copy from each other back then. If you look at a lot of the guys we’d copy each other’s faces and hands. I spoke to Alex one time when he was in California and he was very down in the dumps and he was very unfriendly. I remember talking to John Romita about him that he was very reclusive and didn’t like people but he was a very funny guy and he always did his own stuff. He’s a very talented guy. Alex, Gene Colan, I always admired those guys a lot.

I was only in the field professionally for only five years and that was it. There’s such a drive now for the old artists, it’s a funny thing. When I left comics I became better than comics by drawing illustrations. A lot of the comic book artists, like John Romita, are terrific illustrators. But the young kids of today they hype up the muscles and stuff and I guess the kids like that stuff. I once spoke to John before he retired and said, “I wouldn’t mind going back into comics John,” and he said, “Well don’t kill yourself trying.” It’s just a totally different field and you have to have a mindset to do that and it’s difficult for me to even think the way these kids think, not so much with the drawing but the attitude.

The old artists were trained mechanically so to say. We all copied, as kids, from Milton Caniff and Alex Raymond. If you look at Al Williamson you’ll see that he copied him to a T. John Prentice was another. It’s a trend. It’s not to say they don’t draw well, some guys are interesting, but they tend to follow the TV with the action shots and the foreshortening. There were certain rules, per se, in the old days and you just didn’t break the rules.

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FURTHER READING:
Vic Carrabotta's official web-site
Vic Carrabotta at the GCD
Vic Carrabotta's Atlas/Timely Credits

Friday, September 11, 2009

It's The End Of The World As We Know It...The New DC! The New Marvel!

So there's been new changes at both Marvel and DC. The Mouse now owns Marvel, angering a lot of people who believe that the Jack Kirby estate should be paid a percentage as Marvel is only worth what it is due to Kirby's vision. Let's not forget Steve Ditko, Don Heck, John Romita and quite a few others, but that just ain't gonna happen. Disney paid a staggering four billion for Marvel, essentially to buy the rights (and profits) to a few movies that have done surprisingly well of late. Still the money maker was always with DC - after all the last Batman flick grossed over a billion dollars alone and has become the only comic book related movie to spawn an Oscar. An amazing feat when you consider that, for many decades, all anyone identified Batman with was Adam West camping it up in some tacky gray underwear.

While there's been a lot of ranting about the fate of the Marvel Universe now that Disney owns it I've yet to see anything, well, concrete. Tom Brevoort still has a job. So does Joe Quesada. For now. But in comic books editors offices usually have revolving doors and no matter how popular a person is, if they fall out of favour, upset or annoy someone or commit the cardinal sin of losing masses of money then they're generally removed, often without fanfare and more often than not, with a lot of scorn, scurrilous rumours and outright and vexatious comments spread about them in public. There's nothing like ruining a persons reputation and the comic book industry do it better than most. There's also the question of the characters and creators. We have a general idea of how Disney treat their creators. They're well paid, for the most part, but every line they squiggle belongs to the Mouse and there's nothing anyone can do to change that. It's policy. Who knows if this will extend to Marvel. Will we see a cross-over between Spider-Man and Mickey Mouse? Beats me - however I have seen stranger things happen. I'd not be surprised if we see the return of Prime or Rune before we see another Howard The Duck comic though.

Over at DC things have been happening at a rapid pace. The response was that Warner Brothers have taken more control over DC Comics, restructuring the company and re-badging it as DC Entertainment. Paul Levitz is out, Diane Nelson is in. Was Paul pushed or did he jump? Does it matter? Paul isn't out of a job and from what I've read by people who *gasp* know the guy, he appears to have wanted to go back to writing anyway. I expect he got a decent payout. As Levitz himself stated in the official press release, "After so many roles at DC it’s exciting to look forward to focusing on my writing and being able to remain a part of the company I love as it grows into its next stage. It’s a new golden age for comics and DC’s great characters, and I hope my new position will allow me to contribute to that magic time." Hardly sounds like the words of anyone who's disgruntled, and those who've been sacked from lower profile positions have often made it their immediate goal to slander the company they've left, thus burning the bridges down to the waterline. Levitz hasn't done this and appears to remain in DC/Warner's employ.

Is change good? There's a few answers to that. Each time Marvel or DC undergoes change a pile of people start clearing their desks, and that's to be expected. Anyone who shells out the money we've seen will come into the new company and install their own people - I know I would. Just what changes will now happen at both Marvel and DC I guess we just have to wait and see. It won't stop a pile of people who aren't connected to the companies in any way, shape or form from hysterically ranting about it all though. I like to adopt the wait and see attitude though.

In the meantime what I did do was contact a pile of people who might have a valid opinion. You might recognise some names in this lot. Not everyone I contacted wanted to go on the record, indeed quite a few replied back saying that they have nothing to say about the subjects of both Marvel/Disney and DC/Warner and I can respect that. However a few people did offer up some comments and some very wise ones at that. Here's the pick of them.

"I think, in both cases, the changes aren't as dramatic as fans and professionals would like to theorize," says Dan Panosian. "Marvel was owned by Revlon [Pearlman] for a time. I think a like-minded, character driven, company like Disney can only be a positive thing. Fans worry that Marvel will be censored but they forget that Disney owns Miramax and last I checked, no one is censoring Quentin Tarantino..."

"As for DC... They have proven themselves leaders in this business for years and years. I don't think that's going to change. I would expect a boost in sales for both companies and for comic books in general as things get more and more mainstream and in touch with current media trends."

Someone who has seen change before, many, many times and at more than one company, including DC, is legend Dick Giordano. Dick has this to say, "Both moves were in the works behind closed doors for many moons, I would think. Rumors about changes at DC preceded the Disney/Marvel announcement so I think that it is unlikely that either was a copy-cat deal. Just a guess.

"I think both were aimed at increasing movie profits for the parent companies. Neither Warner nor Disney care about comic books or comic book fans. It's somewhat ironic that after the film industry which for years, ignored the possibility of comic book characters attracting adult audiences, suddenly jump in with both feet at a time when the peak sales of comic book movies may have passed and are leveling out a bit.

"I doubt very much that Disney or Warners management will make huge changes in the day-to-day operations of either company except, possibly to look for ways to save money, most likely at the expense of the creative community. For example, they both feel uncomfortable with and avoid any sharing of profits . Both companies in their core business, do not have a fine record in this area. Only time will tell, though , it is much too early to speculate on what their long range plans are.

"As for as a mass exit of creative personnel from either Marvel of DC because of their new situation, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen. There simply is not enough work in the US comics industry as it is and only a very small handful will be comfortable enough with their work potential to 'take a hike!'"

"I believe that Warner has long treated DC as the bastard stepchild that they inherited, and did not appear too eager to actually plumb the creative resources that they had at their disposal," says Charles Yoakum. "They followed the old adage, "Well, Batman is popular, but now we'll do it RIGHT!" conveniently ignoring all the great stories that had been done in the comics because, to them, comics were crap.

"Marvel hired people who took a chance and used the properties to make movies that took directly from the best elements of the comics themselves and thus used their acquisitions to their best advantage. X-Men 2 is Chris Claremont's X-Men and no one elses... and its by far the best comic book movie ever made in my opinion.

"Time Warner is just making adjustments that will allow them to use their properties as best as they can, something that they should have been doing 20 years ago. Neither corporate move would stop me from doing work from either company, they may actually become more professional in their dealings with artists as time goes on. We writers and artists can get screwed by a much better class of people.

"As our little niche media is recognized by the rest of the general public for what we comic fans had always known- i.e. that we're a media with a lot of entertainment to give - we should expect that with greater dollars comes greater responsibility, and greater corporate overseeing."

Trevor Von Eeden commented, "I've only recently found out about Disney's acquisition of Marvel--and I don't doubt that it's for strictly monetary reasons--same goes for Warner's, in relation to DC.

"As far as how it affects me, I must say--not at all.

"I've NEVER cared about who ran either company, only about how I've been treated by their employees (i.e: their editors.)

"I give absolutely no thought to who runs what, in ANY aspect of this corporate-owned country. All I ever have--or ever will--care about, is the quality of what I have to offer.

"Things that are out of my hands (i.e: out of my control) are exactly that--out of my hands. I never give 'em a second thought. And as far as contracts go, they should be judged by (the fairness of) their content, and no other factor. Doesn't matter to me WHO'S running the company--only thing that matters is HOW it's run!

"You might as well ask me what I think of "God," in terms of ruling the masses. I don't."

David E Miller: "I think that this is fantastic news for the longevity of these characters as now Disney and Warner are staking their futures on them. However, I worry about the future of comic books because now that Marvel and DC are being scrutinized as being part of larger entertainment conglomerates rather than comic book companies."

"I'm sad to see Paul leave the leadership role at DC," says Gerry Conway, "He's given a lot to the company over the last few decades, and helped guide it through some turbulent times. I hope the new management builds on his legacy."

And lastly, but definitely nowhere near least, comes this from Michael Kaluta. "I've not got a lot of thoughts about it all, except 'it's about time SOMEONE started paying attention to the Comic Books...' DC Comics has been sitting on a Gold Mine without seeming to try to get things into other mediums... Marvel has been a bit more adept at it, esp lately, but it's all driven by the Film Industry, not the Comic Book Industry pushing itself out there...

"SO, It's all good news as far as I'm concerned: untapped wealth, a rich cache of treasures, enough to fuel Film and TV for decades!"

So where does that leave us? Mark Evanier has weighed into the debate here and here and he's already predicting the demise of comic books as we know it, again, that's just supposition on the part of Mark -- I doubt he has any idea as to what Disney and Warners are about to either do, or not do, anymore than the rest of us. he might have a good idea, or an opinion, but that's about it. The one thing that did bother me a lot though. Tony Isabella, in a recent forum post, had this to say, "Within three hours, I received four phone calls and ten e-mails asking me to comment on it. About two-thirds were of the 'as an old friend of Paul Levitz' variety and the rest were of the 'as someone who hates DC" variety.'"

I ask this - in the midst of all the hysteria and burning of virtual bras, have people lost any sense of impartiality? It reflects the sad state of people when being impartial can be construed as fence sitting. My opinion, for what it's worth? Wait and see. If things happen that people don't like then don't buy the product - pure and simple. Someone will take notice of the bad press, but more people take notice of reduced sales/profits. If it's not broken people don't fix things - ie: if it's making bin loads of cash then the status quo will remain. If it breaks, then it'll be fixed and time will tell if that fix works. Until then...

Tuesday, September 01, 2009

The Death Of The Fantastic Four!

Hot on the heels of Disney buying Marvel comes this brilliant piece of news about the death of the Fantastic Four:
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Fox is Rebooting Fantastic Four
Source:Variety
August 31, 2009

Variety reports that 20th Century Fox has begun overhauling the "Fantastic Four" movie franchise to take the Marvel property beyond the two films already made.

Akiva Goldsman has been hired to oversee the reboot as producer. Michael Green, the co-exec producer of TV's "Heroes" who co-wrote Green Lantern, will write the script for the new Fantastic Four film.

The 2005 Fantastic Four and 2007 sequel "Rise of the Silver Surfer" were directed by Tim Story and starred Ioan Gruffudd, Jessica Alba, Chris Evans and Michael Chiklis. Since the deals for the reboot are just getting made, it is unclear if any of them will return.

Fox controls the "Fantastic Four" movie franchise in perpetuity -- as long as it continues making the films. Marvel is a producer and financial participant through a licensing agreement.
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Why does this mean death? Akiva Goldsman is the guy who not only produced such deathless classics as Starsky & Hutch, Constatine, Lost In Space and Deep Blue Sea, Hancock, Poseidon and other colossal wastes of money but he also wrote the award winning Batman Forever and the timeless classic Batman & Robin. True, he did write the Oscar winning film A Beautiful Mind, but unless he's going to portray Reed Richards as a savant who reveal himself at the end of the reboot as having imagined the whole thing then the world is in a lot of trouble. Still, two movies and a reboot. That's progress. But hey, that's one more movie than the Hulk got. Perhaps we'll finally see Matt LeBlanc as Reed Richards?

Alas, poor Fantastic Four. I knew them, Horatio, a group of infinite interest, of most excellent fancy. Their stories hath captivated me a thousand times, and now how abhorr'd in my imagination that Akiva is attached!
My gorge rises at it..

I guess if the Mouse doesn't get you first, Akiva certainly will.

And speaking of the Mouse buying the House Of Ideas, how many people have picked up this quote: "Another big loser could be Diamond and the Direct Market. It's now possible that Disney/Marvel will scale back on production, possibly focusing on cutting the line down to what it can actually manage to put out on time and just doing enough publishing to keep the characters in the public eye. It is also possible that Disney/Marvel might do all of their own distribution. In this regard the deal can be a huge game changer or everyone. Seriously, anything can happen at this point.

“At minimum I would expect that Diamond Book Distribution will lose Marvel from its catalog as they will no doubt move to Harper.” -- Dan Vado of SLG Publishing, home of Disney properties “Haunted Mansion,” “Tron,” and “Gargoyles,” among others.

This might be the straw that breaks the back of the camel known as Diamond and their own personal monopoly. Diamond might be forced to carry a wider range of items, including comics and magazines that don't reach their own personal cut off point, that is if those publishers are willing to return to the fold...I'll be watching that part with great interest, oh, and I'll wait for the first Spider-Man vs Mickey Mouse comic, which should be due out about a week ago now. Never let it be said that Disney don't promote that Mouse to death, and they'll be flogging the Marvel horse for all it's worth as well once they've gutted the line down to a few core titles, as indicated. No more endless cross-overs (not such a bad idea) and no vanity projects. The winners in all of this might well be DC, Image, Dark Horse...and so on.

Such is life.

Sunday, February 17, 2008

Conan In Australia: An Incomplete History









Be warned, this is going to be technical and rather dry. So if you're looking for something funny then you'd be better of looking in a mirror. If you want to see the covers for virtually all of the comics listed here then click on the different publisher titles.

For a character so popular in all parts of the world, Conan The Barbarian hasn’t had a rich publishing history in regards to Australian comic books. The Robert E Howard books, along with the authors that followed, were always available in paperback format but the Australian publishers generally treated the Conan comic book like any other mainstream title when it came to reprints; that is not as desirable as books such as Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four.

CLIMAX ADVENTURE ALBUM
(Click here for the images)

The first appearance of Conan in Australian comic books appears to have been within the pages of CLIMAX ADVENTURE ALBUM #10, as published by Kenmure. It is with this book that the first mystery surrounding Conan in Australia has surfaced.

The web-site, the Australian DC Superhero Reprint Gallery (which oddly enough also covers non-DC material) has an estimated date for Climax Adventure Comic #10 of October 1971. The Conan story within is titled, ‘BEWARE THE WRATH OF ANU’ by Roy Thomas, Barry Smith and Sal Buscema, along with the stories Men Of The Shadows by Stan Lee, Syd Shores and Christopher Rule, and The King And The Oak by Thomas with John and Marie Severin. These stories originally appeared in Conan The Barbarian #10 (USA) also with a cover date October 1971, which means it would have appeared around August 1971. The main issue with this dating is that Kenmure would have to have had the story in hand at least one month prior to publication. If this was the case then depending on the actual publication date this comic might truly be called the original and the USA counterpart the reprint. The conclusion is that the dates for the Australian comic might be slightly out of range and that while it did appear in 1971 it could well have been at a later date, such as November or early December. A discussion between myself and noted Australian reprint collector Spiros Xenos bears this theory out, and Spiros has informed me that he's about to publish some interesing information about dating the Australian reprint comics. The copy stored in the Mitchell Collection of the New South Wales state library is dated 23/12/????. Period advertisements date the book from 1971, and it is possible that the date the title was issued, and the date it was received at the library might well differ radically. The DC Reprint Gallery also tells us that the cover price of $.20 applies for this book for a date spanning July 1969 through to June 1972, which would place it in the right date. Unless printing records can be located it is unlikely that an actual date can be pinned down.

By the time issue #11 of CLIMAX ADVENTURE ALBUM appeared in November 1972, Conan was being reprinted in SAVAGE TALES. However issue #11 of Climax did reprint THE LURKER WITHIN by Roy Thomas, Barry Smith and Sal Buscema, which originally appeared in Conan The Barbarian #7 (USA).

SAVAGE TALES
(Click here for the images)

The next appearance of Conan was in the title SAVAGE TALES. SAVAGE TALES had two lives, The first run was published by Kenmure Press and ran for fifteen issues, with an annual. A continuation of this run appeared with the possible advent of issue #16 and the confirmed existence of issues #17 and #18, both of which appeared over two years after issue #15 and contained no Marvel Comics material at all, instead focusing on DC material such as Claw The Unconquered, Hercules Unbound and Beowulf.

The first issue of this title was clearly designed to capitalise on the name of Conan, with the book being titled; CONAN THE BARBARIAN STARRING IN: SAVAGE TALES. As a reprint title aligned with a current Marvel title the contents were diverse. Along with Conan the first issue reprinted stories featuring Ka-Zar, Man Thing and John Romita’s Femizons. Despite the cover billing Conan appeared as the third story. The aspect that set this title apart from other comics of the same era was the inventive use of photographic images and collages for cover art. At a time when covers were generally either reprinted USA covers, or collages of interior panels to save money, the use, and clearly expense, of using photo covers was unique and was re-used for horror comics issued by the likes of Gredown in the late 1970s through to the early 1980s. Photo covers appeared on all but one of the first ten issues, from that point on the title reprinted covers from the USA Savage Tales series, and generally used covers boasting the art of Neal Adams. The title also boasted exceptional paper stock and reproduction for the time, with clear, white paper with the line art being reproduced in high quality.

The first fifteen issues of SAVAGE TALES ran from early 1972 through to early 1977 when Newton took over the Marvel franchise in Australia. The SAVAGE TALES ANNUAL (un-numbered) appeared in mid to late 1978, after Newton Comics was wound up, and as such led the way for the title to be revived with the same numbering.

As far as the contents there was a number of unusual stories reprinted. Generally the reprint comics in Australia stuck to the mainstream titles, SAVAGE TALES went outside of that and reprinted the following:
Issue # 1 reprinted THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER by Thomas and Smith, this story originally appeared in SAVAGE TALES #1 (USA)
Issue #2 was fairly Conan heavy. Out of three stories in the book two featured Conan. ROGUES IN THE HOUSE by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema came from Savage Tales #1 (USA) while THE SWORD AND THE SORCERERS by Thomas and Smith, from Chamber of Darkness #4 (USA) was taken from the reprint of the story that appeared on Conan The Barbarian #16 (USA).
Issue #3 reprinted A SWORD CALLED STORMBRINGER and THE GREEN EMPRESS OF MELINBONE, both by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema, from Conan The Barbarian #14 and Conan The Barbarian #15 (USA) respectively.
Issue #4 reprinted DEVILS WINGS OVER SHADIZAR by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema, from Conan The Barbarian #6 (USA). With this issue the title began to move more away from the star, Conan, and began reprinting other Marvel titles, in this issue three consecutive Stan Lee/Jack Kirby Thor stories appeared.
Issue #5 reprinted THE BLOOD OF THE DRAGON by Roy Thomas, Gil Kane and the non-de-plume Diverse Hands, from Conan The Barbarian #12 (USA). This issue also the debut of Dr Strange.
Issue #6 reprinted THE KEEPERS OF THE CRYPT by Thomas, Smith, Tom Sutton and Tom Palmer from Conan The Barbarian #8 (USA). This issue also saw the first non-Marvel story reprinted in the title, a Charlton story titled Udanga's Curse.
Issue #7 reprinted GARDEN OF FEAR by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema, from Conan the Barbarian #9 (USA). This issue saw the beginning of Ka-Zar reprints, which would eventually form the core of the title, along with Conan.
Issue #8 reprinted DWELLER IN THE DARK by Thomas and Smith from Conan The Barbarian #12 (USA). Another non-Marvel story appeared in this issue, AGC’s Journey To Chaos, along with Marvel material in the form of Kull and Ka-Zar.
Issue #9 reprinted WEB OF THE SPIDER-GOD by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema, from Conan The Barbarian #13 (USA), along with another non-Marvel story, Jann Of The Jungle by jay Scott Pyke and Don Rico.
Despite having his name still boldly emblazed on the front cover there is no Conan content in issue #10 at all. Ka-Zar, Kull and two stories from Charlton are reprinted here.
Issue #11 saw minor in story length, but major in content material with A PROBABLE OUTLINE OF CONAN'S CAREER by P Schuyler Miller, Leo Marguiles, Pat Broderick, Frank Thorne and Barry Smith from Savage Sword Of Conan #16 (USA) and CIMMERIA by Robert E Howard and Barry Smith from Savage Tales #2 (USA) being reprinted.
Issue #12 reprinted NIGHT OF THE DARK GOD by Thomas, Gil Kane, Neal Adams, Pablo Marcos and the non-de-plume Diverse Hands from Savage Tales #4 (USA).
Issue #13 reprinted the first chapter of RED NAILS (Part I) by Thomas and Smith, from Savage Tales #2 (USA)
Issue #14 reprinted the second part of RED NAILS by Thomas and Smith from Savage Tales #3 (USA) along with Demons Of The Summit by Thomas and Tony DeZungia from The Savage Sword of Conan #3 (USA).
Issue #15 reprinted the third part of RED NAILS by Thomas and Smith from Savage Tales #3 (USA).
SAVAGE TALES ANNUAL reprinted THE SECRET OF SKULL RIVER by Thomas, Jim Starlin and Al Milgrom from Savage Tales #5 (USA).

NEWTON COMICS
(Click here for the images)

NEWTON COMICS was the brainchild of Australian media identity Maxwell Newton. Newton was a larger than life character and felt that he needed to have as much control over publishing within Australia during the 1960s and through to the 1970s. Part of this desire saw Newton form NEWTON COMICS after the idea was feeded to him by journalist Martin Dougherty in late 1973. Armed with a cheque for the amount of $30,000 Dougherty and Newton flew to New York where Dougherty sealed a deal with licenser Transworld to provide material, and also with Marvel Comics to be the sole reprint agent within Australia. Marvel’s existing contracts with publishers such as K.G. Murray (and it’s offshoots Kenmure) would be allowed to run out but all new titles and material would be the sole domain of Newton. The first Newton comic, Amazing Spider-Man #1, appeared in May 1975. A failure of Newton to maintain payments to both Transworld and Marvel saw the licence revoked in mid 1976 and by the end of 1976 Newton Comics was a defunct company. The remaining stock and related materials belonging to Newton, including original art and stats provided by Marvel via Transworld, were dumped into a dumpster at the end of 1976.

Amongst the titles that Newton launched in 1975 was Conan The Barbarian. The title was short run, but it did manage to cram a lot into the 12 issues it ran for, plus a few stories in other Newton titles. The title ran from July 1975 through to February 1976. Initial issues were standard sized for Newton but it soon turned into a size, and format, keeping more in line with the USA SAVAGE TALES or SAVAGE SWORD OF CONAN. One of the traits of Newton was the wholesale chopping and changing of both the artwork and stories. Stories would appear out of sequence as they were printed when the material arrived at Newton’s Richmond HQ. This resulted in some of the most unique Conan titles published.

Issue #1 reprinted THE COMING OF CONAN by Roy Thomas, Barry Smith and Dan Adkins from Conan The Barbarian #1 (USA) and LAIR OF THE BEAST-MEN by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #2 (USA).
Issue #2 reprinted ROGUES IN THE HOUSE by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #11 (USA)
Issue #3 reprinted THE TWILIGHT OF THE GRIM GREY GOD by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema Conan The Barbarian #3 (USA) along with the Kull story, The King And The Oak by Thomas, Marie Severin and John Severin from Conan The Barbarian #10 (USA)
Issue #4 reprinted ZUKALA'S DAUGHTER by Thomas, Smith and Frank Giacoia from Conan The Barbarian #5 (USA), along with the non-Conan story Requiem For A Haunted Man by Gerry Conway, Russ Heath and Crusty Bunkers from Savage Tales #10 (USA)
Issue #5 reprinted DEVIL-WINGS OVER SHADIZAR by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #6 (USA), along with a continuation of the story Requiem For A Haunted Man from the previous issue.
Issue #6 reprinted THE LURKER WITHIN by Thomas, Smith, Adkins and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #7 (USA) plus yet another continuation of Requiem For A Haunted Man.
Issue #7 reprinted GARDEN OF FEAR by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #9 (USA), plus more of Requiem For A Haunted Man.
Issue #8 reprinted THE DWELLER IN THE DARK by Thomas and Smith from Conan The Barbarian #12 (USA).
Issue #9 reprinted A SWORD CALLED STORMBRINGER by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #14 (USA) and THE BLOOD OF THE DRAGON by Thomas, Gil Kane, Tom Palmer and Bernie Wrightson (as Diverse Hands) from Conan The Barbarian #12 (USA)
Issue #10 reprinted the CURSE OF THE UNDEAD-MAN by Thomas, John Buscema and Pablo Marcos from Savage Sword of Conan #1 (USA).
Issue #11 reprinted RED SONJA by Thomas, Esteban Maroto, Neal Adams and Ernie Chau from Savage Sword Of Conan #1 (USA), BLACK COLOSSUS by Thomas, John Buscema and Alfredo Alcala from Savage Sword Of Conan #2 (USA) and AT THE MOUNTAIN OF THE MOON-GOD by Thomas, John Buscema and Pablo Marcos from Savage Sword of Conan #3 (USA)
Issue #12 reprinted THE GREEN EMPRESS OF MELINBONE by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #15 (USA), THE GODS OF BAL-SAGOTH by Thomas, Gil Kane and Ralph Reese from Conan The Barbarian #17 (USA) and THE THING IN THE TEMPLE by Thomas, Kane and Adkins from Conan The Barbarian #18 (USA).

Other Conan stories in the Newton catalogue were as follows:
HULK ANNUAL #1 reprinted THE KEEPRS IN THE CRYPT by Thomas and Smith from Conan The Barbarian #8 (USA)
NEWTON TRIPLE ACTION reprinted THE BLACK HOUND OF VENGENACE by Thomas and Smith from Conan The Barbarian #21 (USA).

YAFFA
(Click here for the images)

With Newton closed for good the license to reprint Marvel comics within Australia was snapped up by page Publications who specialised in printing populist magazines on topics such as Hot Rod cars and sports. Page, via it’s subsidiary Yaffa, would publish Marvel reprint comics into the early 1980s when Federal would step into the scene. During their short time Page/Yaffa managed to print at least seventeen separate comic books related to Conan. It is highly possible that there are more titles yet to be uncovered as Page/Yaffa had a tendency to print comics with unusual titles as one-shot issues. Another trait of Page/Yaffa was chopping up stories to make them fit their standard template, that being three reprinted issues of black and white line art in each book, both magazine size and digest size. Unlike Newton Page/Yaffa didn’t try to compete with the more popular full colour comic books by attempting to be competitive, instead they printed large sized titles with anywhere from sixty or more pages per issue at a competitive price. The Page/Yaffa issues also attempted to sustain a form of continuity by reprinting stories in sequence.

Page/Yaffa managed to print two definite titles of Conan, the main title CONAN THE BARBARIAN along with SAVAGE SWORD OF CONAN, plus at least two one-shot titles, KING CONAN and UNTAMED WORLDS OF CONAN.

CONAN THE BARBARIAN

This title lasted for eleven issues. The first four and the last issue in the run were magazine sized and black and white. Issues five to ten were digest sized and also black and white. It was in the digest sized comics that the story editing/mutilation occurred on a larger scale than the magazine sized titles.

Issue #1 reprinted THE COMING OF CONAN by Thomas, Smith and Dan Adkins from Conan The Barbarian #1 (USA), LAIR OF THE BEAST-MEN by Thomas, Smith and Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #2 (USA) and THE TWILIGHT OF THE GRIM GREY GOD by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #3 (USA)
Issue #2 reprinted THE TOWER OF THE ELEPHANTS by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #4 (USA), ZUKALA’S DAUGHTER by Thomas, Smith and Frank Giacoia from Conan The Barbarian #5 (USA) and DEVIL WINGS OVER SHADIZAR by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #5 (USA).
Issue #3 reprinted THE LURKER WITHIN by Thomas, Smith, Adkins and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #7 (USA), THE KEEPERS OF THE CRYPT by Thomas, Smith, Tom Sutton and Tom Palmer from Conan The Barbarian #8 (USA) and THE GARDEN OF FEAR by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema Conan The Barbarian #9 (USA).
Issue #4 reprinted BEWARE THE WRTAH OF ANU by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #10 (USA) and ROGUES IN THE HOUSE by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #11 (USA)

The title then was continued in a digest sized format with poor cover graphics.
Issue #5 reprinted A SWORD CALLED STORMBRINGER by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #14 (USA), THE GREEN EMPRESS OF MELINBONE by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #15 (USA) and WEB OF THE SPIDER-GOD by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #13 (USA).
Issue #6 reprinted THE FRONT GIANT’S DAUGHTER by Thomas and Smith from Savage Tales #1 (USA), SWORD AND THE SORCERERS by Thomas and Smith from Conan The Barbarian #16 (USA) and THE GODS OF THE BAL-SAGOTH by Thomas and Gil Kane from Conan The Barbarian #17 (USA) and THE THING IN THE TEMPLE by Thomas, Kane and Adkins from Conan The Barbarian #18 (USA).
Issue #7 reprinted HAWKS FROM THE SEA by Thomas, Smith and Adkins from Conan The Barbarian #19 (USA), THE BLACK HOUND OF VENGEANCE by Thomas, Smith and Adkins from Conan The Barbarian #20 (USA) and MONSTER OF THE MONOLITHS by Thomas, Smith, Craig Russell, Val Mayerik and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #21 (USA). The second story is missing it’s splash page in order to give the impression that both stories were one larger story.
Issue #8 reprinted THE COMING OF CONAN by Thomas, Smith and Dan Adkins from Conan The Barbarian #1 (USA), THE SHADOW OF THE VULTURE by Thomas, Smith, Sal Buscema, Adkins and Chic Stone from Conan The Barbarian #23 (USA) and THE SONG OF RED SONJA by Thomas and Smith from Conan The Barbarian #24 (USA).
Issue #9 reprinted THE MORRORS OF KHARAM AKKAD by Thomas, John Buscema, Sal Buscema and John Severin from Conan The Barbarian #25 (USA), THE HOUR OF THE GRIFFIN by Thomas, John Buscema and Ernie Chua (Chan) from Conan The Barbarian #26 (USA) and THE BLOOD OF BEL-HISSAR by Thomas, John Buscema and Chau (Chan) from Conan The Barbarian #27 (USA). Again, the second story has the splash page edited out to give the impression of a large, seamless story.
Issue #10 reprinted MOON OF ZEMBABWEI by Thomas, John Buscema and Chau (Chan) from Conan The Barbarian #28 (USA), TWO AGAINST TURAN by Thomas, John Buscema and Chau (Chan) from Conan The Barbarian #29 and THE HAND OF NERGAL by Thomas, John Buscema and Chau (Chan) from Conan The Barbarian #30 (USA).

The last issue in the series reverted back to a magazine sized comic.
Issue #11 reprinted THE COMING OF CONAN by Thomas, Smith and Dan Adkins from Conan The Barbarian #1 (USA), LAIR OF THE BEAST-MEN by Thomas, Smith and Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #2 (USA) and THE TWILIGHT OF THE GRIM GREY GOD by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #3 (USA) and was an exact copy of the first issue.

Also digest size was KING CONAN and UNTAMED WORLD OF CONAN. These appear to be one-shot issues, although there may be more than one issue of KING CONAN in existence.

UNTAMED WORLD OF CONAN reprinted THE TOWER OF THE ELEPHANT by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #4 (USA), ZUKALA’S DAUGHTER by Thomas, Smith and Frank Giacoia from Conan The Barbarian #5 (USA) and DEVIL WINGS OCER SHADIZAR by Thomas, Smith and Sal Buscema from Conan The Barbarian #6 (USA).

KING CONAN #1 reprinted THE WITCH OF THE MISTS, by Thomas, John Buscema and Ernie Chan from King Conan #1 (USA) and THE BLACK SPHINX OF NEBTHU by Thomas, John Buscema and Chan from King Conan #2 (USA). The second story has the splash page edited out in order to present the two stories as being one.

SAVAGE SWORD OF CONAN

This title lasted for at least four issues, with the first issue appearing in 1978 and the last in 1980, making it an annual more than an ongoing regular title. The contents of this title mirrored the American counterpart although shorter text pieces and stories were often dropped and pages edited out.

Issue #1 reprinted THE CURSE OF THE UNDEAD-MAN by Thomas, John Buscema and Pablo Marcos from Savage Sword Of Conan #1 (USA), CONAN’S FORGOTTEN WOMEN by Fred Blosser from Savage Sword Of Conan #1 (USA) and THE FROST GIANT’S DAUGHTER by Thomas and Smith from Savage Sword Of Conan #1 (USA). While the reproduction of the latter story is superior to the version that appears in issue #6 of the Page/Yaffa Conan The Barbarian series, this version is missing half of the original splash page, although it is otherwise uncensored. Issue #2 reprinted BLACK COLOSSUS by Thomas, John Buscema and Alfredo Alcala from Savage Sword Of Conan #2 (USA).
Issue #3 reprints AT THE MOUNTAIN OF THE MOON-GOD by Thomas, John Buscema and Pablo Marcos from Savage Sword Of Conan #3 (USA) and DEMONS OF THE SUMMIT by Thomas and Tony deZuniga from Savage Sword Of Conan #3 (USA).
Issue #4 reprinted IRON SHAWOWS IN THE MOON by Thomas, John Buscema and Alfredo Alcala from Savage Sword Of Conan #4 (USA) and THE CORBAN CONAN by Rich Corban from Savage Sword Of Conan #4 (USA).

My belief is that is where the title stops.

FEDERAL
(Click here for the images)


With the growing influx of Marvel’s standard, and at times cheaper, colour comics Page/Yaffa allowed their license to lapse in the early 1980s. Shortly afterwards, in about 1983, another company, THE FEDERAL PUBLISHING COMPANY Pty Ltd stepped forward to enter the world of comic book publishing. Federal would be the last Australian based company to take on the duties as a comic book reprinter for Marvel in Australia until the early 2000s. Part of their strategy was to swamp the market with comic book sized, black and white reprints that contained an average of sixty four pages per issue, generally on newsprint with often cheap paperstock, making mint copies now all but invisible. The general plan was to get as much out into the market place as possible, and, at times, it appeared that Federal was competing with Marvel by printing relatively new stories shortly after their original printings had appeared via import.

Into this strategy came Conan for one last gasp. Bouyed by the success of the first Conan movie and taking their lead from Page/Yaffa, Federal would print three consecutive issues in each book, so the previously mentioned page count was important and in order to make stories fit into the required space often splash pages were removed to give the appearance of a single, seamless story and panels were altered, re-drawn and poorly touched up. Federal would eventually abandon the black and white magazine approach and delivered coloured comic books. As they were generally printed on poor newsprint with muted tones they were no competition for the, by then, more familiar Marvel and DC Comics with their glossy covers, garish colours and slick paperstock.

The highlight of the entire Federal run was the movie adaptation of Conan The Destroyer. This featured a thick cardstock cover and proper comic book paperstock. The book was a straight copy of the standard USA adaptation and clearly sold more copies than the black and white Conan comics that Federal were issuing.

CONAN THE BARBARIAN

Issue #1 reprinted THE COMING OF CONAN by Roy Thomas, Barry Smith and Dan Adkins from Conan The Barbarian #1 (USA), THE RING OF RHAX by Bruce Jones, Gil Kane and Ernie Chan from Conan The Barbarian #131 (USA) and GAMES OF GHARN by Jones, Kane and Danny Bulandi from Conan The Barbarian #132 (USA).
Issue #2 reprinted THE WITCH OF WIDSNOR by Jones, Kane and Bulandi from Conan The Barbarian #133 (USA), A HITCH IN TIME by Jones, Kane and Ernie Chan from Conan The Barbarian #134 (USA) and THE FOREST OF THE NIGHT by Steven Grant, Marc Silvestri, Joe Rubinstein and Danny Bulanadi from Conan The Barbarian #135 (USA). The second story has had the splash page removed totally to make the two stories appear as one, the third story has the splash page reduced and panels removed from the second page to make it fit into the required page count.
Issue #3 reprinted VALLEY OF FOREVER NIGHT by J.M. DeMatties, John Buscema and Ernie Chan from Conan The Barbarian #118 (USA), THE VOICE OF ONE LONG GONE by DeMatties, John Buscema and Bob McLeod from Conan The Barbarian #119 (USA) and THE HAND OF ERLICK by DeMatties, John Buscema and McLeod from Conan The Barbarian #120 (USA). All of these stories were mutilated with the splash pages being removed from the second and third stories in order to give the impression of one single story.
Issue #4 reprinted THE CITY WHERE TIME STOOD STILL by DeMatties, John Buscema and McLeod from Conan The Barbarian #122 (USA), THE HORROR BENEATH THE HILLS by DeMatties, John Buscema and McLeod from Conan The Barbarian #123 (USA) and THE ETERNITY WAR by DeMatties, John Buscema and McLeod from Conan The Barbarian #124 (USA). Again, as with the previous issue all of these stories were mutilated with the splash pages being removed from the second and third stories in order to give the impression of one single story.
Issue #5 reprinted THE WITCHES OF NEXXX by DeMatties, John Buscema and McLeod from Conan The Barbarian #125 (USA), THE BLOOD RED EYE OF TRUTH by DeMatties, John Buscema and McLeod from Conan The Barbarian #126 (USA) and THE SNOW HAIRED WOMAN OF THE WASTES by DeMatties and Kane from Conan The Barbarian #126 (USA). The second story has had the splash page removed, again to give the impression of one single story.
Issue #6 reprinted SPIDER ISLE by Jones, John Buscema and Brett Breeding from Conan The Barbarian #140 (USA), THE WEB TIGHTENS by Jones, John Buscema and Brett Breeding from Conan The Barbarian #141 (USA) and THE MAZE, THE MAN, THE MONSTER by Jones, John Buscema and Chan from Conan The Barbarian #142 (USA). The second story has had the splash page removed, again to give the impression of one single story.

I have no details on issues #7 and #8.

Issue #9 reprinted TOWER OF MITRA by Jones, John Buscema and Chan from Conan The Barbarian #147 (USA) and THE PLAGUE OF FORLEK by Jones, John Buscema and Chan from Conan The Barbarian #148 (USA). This issue was printed in full colour and may be the last of the series.

CONAN THE DESTROYER
#nn reprinted CONAN THE DESTROYER by Michael Fleisher and John Buscema from Marvel Comics Super Special #35 (USA), CELLULOID DELTOIDS by Paul M Sammon from Marvel Comics Super Special #35 (USA) and CONAN THE DESTROYER by Fleisher, John Buscema, Pat Redding, Bob Camp and Charles Vess from Marvel Comics Super Special #35 (USA).

Conan The Destroyer more than likely was the last Australian reprint Conan comic released.

Sunday, January 20, 2008

An Open Letter To Marvel From Dave Simons

Following in the spirit of Michael Netzer's 'Open Letter To DC' I'd like to present the world with the following.

Dave Simons, artist, contacted me a few days ago with the following letter and sketches, in which he makes a good case for the return of one of Marvel's more nuttier creations, Squirrel Girl. That Dave is more than willing to draw the character, and is more than able to do so, only adds to the appeal. But enough from me for now, here's Dave's letter:

Just when I was bemoaning that Marvel can't do "cute" and "fun" any more, they come out with Squirrel Girl in Great Lakes Initiative. I just discovered her online.

This is the kind of character that I love! It was no accident that I cut my inking teeth on Howard the Duck.

What I'd like to see happen is for Squirrel Girl to get involved in a romance, possibly with some completely ordinary jerk, as in manga "magical girlfriend" type stories. She needs a bit of a re-design, too.

Just a few words about my design choices... I gave Squirrel Girl squirrel ears. Consider it a further mutation (actually, it would be an atavism, like her tail). The kneepads are to keep her knees from getting scraped up on rough bark. The goggles are there to have another design element on her head as well as being a nod to another squirrel-based character. I also got rid of that weird eye make-up. Otherwise, I tried to design something a human might be able to wear. The colors are autumn themed, because that's what I think of when I think of squirrels.

Since she's already defeated Dr. Doom and Thanos, I don't know who's left for a villain.

So if there's a writer who wants to do a pitch,
let me know!

Happy Trails
Dave

Personally I think it's a great idea. A return to some good old fashioned fun comic books. Comic books that you'd be happy to leave around for your kids to read. Comic books in which no-one dies, no-one gets dismembered, does deals with the devil or does anything that'd offend anyone. I mean, isn't that what comic books are about? Fun? Innocent fun? Kid friendly comics? Or has Marvel, and to an extent DC, so lost their way that Archie is now the sole remaining company that can produce a comic book that an eight year old can read without puking up over? Is Dave on the right track or is he just plan nuts?

Let's move away from the grim and gritty snuff comics that we've been subjected to in recent times and put the big push behind Dave Simons and his proposal for the Return Of Squirrel Girl!!

Friday, January 18, 2008

An Open Reply To Michael Netzer

Dear Michael,

You know I love you right? I've told you enough times, you're one of my favourite people. I'd happily walk through fire for you and I'll defend you to the death, however I have to ask, with all due respect, what the devil are you thinking about approaching DC with an empassioned plea to save J'onn J'onnz: The Martian Manhunter? You know it won't work, it could never work, and there's several good reasons for this. But by begging DC to do the decent thing and not kill off one of their oldest characters is just playing into their hands.

What kills a comic book character quicker than poor sales? Interest. Apathy will always save a character from being killed. The title might be canceled, but the character will survive until someone like Frank Miller comes along and rapes it. But hey, it's there. Barring acts of God and Miller, someone might pop along and go, "Hey, I've always wanted to bring back Tappin' Tommy, I might do so in this issue and have him take out the Hulk and the entire roster of the Defenders again with his smoking tap dance moves, top hat and cane." God love that other Millar, Mark. Still showing absolutely no interest in a character has always been the best way to go. Who wants to create an 'event' with a character that no-one cars about? Sure, kill off all of Team America. Who gives a fat rats? I even know who I'd nominate to write and draw that one shot. But once people show an interest in a character, or a title, then the companies, as you'd know better than I do, can't wait to upset any status quo that might have existed and totally shaft what readers are left. If that character is considered to be loved, hot damn, even better. Let's kill the bastards while someone is still shelling out their hard earnt for it.

So, if you want to save J'onn, stop being a martyr and just show no interest at all. Don't buy the books, stop blogging, stop drawing attention to it. Easy.

Meanwhile you know, better than I do, that the following will happen:
1] DC will kill off the Manhunter because it'll mean an instant sales spike. Nothing that is said, or done, will change that, hey - the more people who complain the better. As I've just said, if you whinge, they will kill it. If you cry, they will laugh. And they will count the dollars you give them.

2] DC will then launch a new series. They will offer up the following, a clone, a J'onn from the past, an impostor or a ghost. Remember, this is the company that killed their flagship character, Superman, and gave us no less than four replacements only to reveal that none of them were the one, true Superman (and while we're at it I'm waiting for the big reveal that the final guy wasn't Superman at all, but an energy being created by the Eradicator, with the real thing still lying in suspended animation waiting for yet another re-boot - don't laugh, odder things have happened). They've killed Robin, more than once it now appears. They broke Batman's back, hell they even killed the 'original' Batman (anyone remember that?), not to mention Supergirl, Green Lantern, The Spectre and the Flash. Some have come back since, as we know, no-one is really dead in comic book land, not even Bucky!

Here's a funny thing. Mid 2007 Norm Breyfogle and myself brainstormed and pitched an idea to DC regarding the one, true death of Batman. Never heard from them. Silence. Nada. Not even a "Jeez, guy, that sucks." Maxwell Smart heard more in his Cone Of Silence. I ran the proposal past a few people, including Alan Weiss who offered up some brilliant suggestions. It even had the best title that I could think about, a mysterious title that would have gotten a lot of attention, along with a great concept. In my dreams the book would have been drawn by Norm and inked by Norm, along with a host of artists as guest inkers - yourself, Weiss, Alan Kupperberg, Rich Buckler, Bob Almond, Mark McKenna, Steve Mitchell, Jimmy Tournas - everyone I've ever met, in my dreams, had a hand in this, one page at a time, barring the splash page and the death page, which would be pure Norm. Hell, I now want to get Fred Hembeck in there somewhere. Everyone loved it (barring one person who believes that Batman can beat anything and is, by default, immortal, but we don't get into that), but clearly DC didn't. I even wrote an out for DC: you see Bruce Wayne dies, but Batman lives on. Nope, not good enough. Nothing. So if I can't kill Batman, and I mean properly kill him, what makes you think you can save J'onn? Oh, and remind me to show you the proposal one day.

3] Eventually the real J'onn will come back to life. As he's a Martian he can't really die. It'll be revealed that he's some form of a Proty and cannot die, he just melts a bit, regenerates and comes back to life. So fret not, J'onn might have a long sleep, but he ain't gonna die. After all, who, in comic book land, is really dead. I mean proper dead. No-one. Don't let Marvel fool you, Captain America, and by that I mean the Steve Rogers Captain America, will be back soon enough. It's 2008. There'll be a build up and eventually the character will explode back into the books sometime around March 2011, to celebrate his 70th anniversary. Count on it. In fact, anyone out there want to bet on it?

How do you change any of this? Here's the hot wire to the head - you can't. Offering your services up to the title, even for free, won't change anything. Indeed the opposite - they'll just get you to draw the death scenes. Hey, as much as I'd love to see you back on a mainstream title, and it'd be almost too cool to see you revisit a title that you once drew, let's face it, if God Himself appeared before the DC brass and offered to pencil the title, with Neal Adams and Jim Lee inking it and Frank Miller writing it, DC would still ask for the character to be killed off. That they could boast a creative team of Miller-God-Adams-Lee would only be cream. So if God can't save J'onn, what chance have you got?

Face it. J'onn is dead already. The minute you and Frank Lee Delano began to protest you signed his death warrant. You drove the flaming sword through his green heart. Have a look at the Hembeck image here, it'll give you an idea of what's going to kill ole J'onn - a flaming team-up cross over. By now DC will have read your words and be drawing blood with their hand wringing. Thus when the Death Of J'onn J'onzz happens it'll be on a lot of people's heads, but not DCs. After all they're only doing what they believe you, Frank and everyone else out there wants - which is to generate interest in an otherwise fading character. And if it's not J'onn then it'll be the only other character that they've not killed and brought back to life yet, Aquaman. And why hasn't Aquaman died yet?


Because no-one would care less.

Think about it.

Drop me a line and we'll draw some more blood.

Saturday, December 22, 2007

Forgery for the Holidays

It's been a while between drinks but it's always a delight to wake up and find an email from the Former DC Staffer in the inbox waiting to go. This one is a Christmas themed message.

Enjoy!

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Forgery for the Holidays

During the '80s both DC and Marvel used to have very small holiday parties. There was never very much money for these events but they were always welcome. One year Marvel did exceptionally well and decided to have a staff only party and handed out special invitations to the event. A production staff artist at DC was determined to get in so borrowing a Marvel staffers invite he spent two days in the DC production department constructing an exact forgery. It was positively perfect once completed but most of us thought he’d get caught for sure.

The next day we asked how the Marvel party was and he said it was a BLAST!

Ingenuity at its best. Happy Holidays!

Thursday, November 29, 2007

Unknown Worlds Of Science Fiction: The Unseen Kelly Freas

You're not seeing double as these two comics are not exactly the same. What you're looking at is the the rejected Kelly Freas cover to the Marvel magazine, Unknown Worlds Of Science Fiction #1 as published by Yaffa* in 1979.

Variant covers on Australian comic books are just one of the reasons why they're in demand. When researching the Newton line (an ongoing concern by the way) I discovered that there existed a variant cover for issue #2 of the magazine, Monsters Unleashed. This cover featured slightly altered artwork and, as near as I can determine, this cover only appeared on the Newton comic of the same name (I have ordered a pile of Yaffa Monsters Unleashed, so I'll be able to determine if the cover carried across). So how did this cover surface on an Australian comic?

It's well known that Marvel would commission covers and artwork from artists that they would then have altered, thus preventing them from being used in their original form. It's an age old practice, DC also did it, most notably on Jack Kirby's Superman work, the bulk of which was altered by the likes of Al Plastino and Murphy Anderson, or inked on covers by the likes of Neal Adams in an attempt to keep the 'house style'. At Marvel the artwork was mainly altered by staff on site, and most notably the art director of the time, John Romita. Before the art was altered a proof would often be made, and these proofs would be sent to the foreign markets for use in the locally made product. Often the wrong proof would be sent and as such many variant covers do exist in various non-American markets, making for unique comic books.

In this case the original art, by celebrated fantasy artist Kelly Freas, was rejected in it's original form and replaced for the American edition by a painting that featured John Romita figures. A partial reason why was then explained by series editor Roy Thomas in Unknown Worlds Of Science Fiction #3. Roy's explanation is light on content and doesn't clear any real air, but then he didn't need to explain anything to the readers as an editor only answers to their publisher, not the general public. The explaination, coupled with a murky black and white image, says, "THE REAL McKELLY: Most readers raved (favourably) about the Kelly Freas/John Romita collaboration on the cover of issue #1, a team-up made necessary when a few last-minute changes were dictated and the fabulous Mr. Freas was off at an SF convention, picking up still another award. But just for the record, here's the original version.**"

The reason the official excuse doesn't ring true comes down to simple logistics. No matter how you look at it, it'd be virtually impossible to draw, render and paint two full figures, plus a complete background at the 'last minute'. This wasn't a simple case of changing a face on line-art, this was a major change to an important cover, and frankly no convention lasts as long it takes to do the amount of work that took place in this case.

Was Marvel justified in changing the covers? That's a personal choice really. In hiring Freas Marvel knew that they'd be getting a non-Marvel cover. While the space creatures look great and unearthly, the humans also look odd and very much out of place on a Marvel cover. In fact they look more like something you'd expect to find on a Warren or Skywald magazine, but certainly not the conservative Marvel of the mid 1970s. By having Romita change the figures the cover becomes more Marvelized and thus more user friendly. In my own opinion, as much as I adore John Romita's work, I prefer the original Freas cover over the re-touched version and it appears that one of the few, if not the only, place that you can see the full colour art is on that 1979 Australian Yaffa comic. Happy hunting.

UNKNOWN WORLD OF SCIENCE FICTION (Yaffa Publishing Group, a subsidiary of Page Publications Pty Ltd)

Cover price: $0.60
Date: 1979.

CONTENTS:
Slow Glass Prologue (Tony Isabella/Gene Colan & Tom Palmer) 3ps
The Day Of The Triffids (Gerry Conway/Ross Andru & Ernie Chua) 15pgs
A View From Without… (Neal Adams) 8ps
Hey Buddy, Can You Lend Me A… (Michael Kaluta) 5pgs
The Bradbury Chronicles (Shel Dorf & Ray Bradbury) 10pgs
Smash Gordon (Frank Brunner) 4pgs
Savage World (Wally Wood/Al Williamson, Frank Frazetta, Angelo Torres & Roy G. Krenkel) 8pgs
Past And Present Master: An Interview With Kelly Freas (Gerry Conway & Kelly Freas) 4pgs
Light Of Other Days (Tony Isabella/Gene Colan & Mike Esposito) 7pgs
Slow Glass Epilogue (Tony Isabella/Gene Colan & Tom Palmer) 1pg

All contents originally appeared in Unknown Worlds Of Science Fiction #1, Marvel Comics

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* for more background information on the Yaffa/Page line do check out Kevin Patrick's excellent summary.

** Portion of Roy Thomas' editorial from Unknown Worlds Of Science Fiction #3, Marvel Comics, May 1975, courtesy of Mark McDan

Monday, September 24, 2007

Looking Back With Bob Budiansky

Bob Budiansky is one of the more unsung heroes of Marvel Comics to emerge from the explosion of talent that took place in the 1970s and 1980s. Originally beginning his career as an artist with the British department at Marvel, he soon graduated to being both a writer and editor, reaching the top of the pile when he became an Editor-In-Chief before his departure in the mid 1990s. Primarily a cover artist, Bob had one regular run as an artist, the incredible relaunch of the Ghost Rider.

Beginning with the issue #68 (an incredible story even today), the creative team of Roger Stern, Bob Budiansky and Dave Simons would go on to re-define the character and in the process made it their own. With the departure of Stern, Bob was boosted to the status of co-plotter with writer J.M. DeMatties. Bob then remained on the title until it was canceled with issue #81. Before it's cancellation the creative team took a second string character and unleashed it's full potential to the comic book world at large. The run remains one of the most talked about in the titles existance and stands alongside Frank Miller's Daredevil, John Byrne's Fantastic Four, Walt Simonson's Thor as one of the must have comic book runs of the early 1980s. It's a shame that Marvel hasn't collected the run, but as third and fourth volumes of Essential Ghost Rider appear more people will be exposed to what made the title great.

If Ghost Rider was all Bob had done then he'd have made his mark. However once he left that title he went onto other things, including overseeing the now legendary Transformers when Marvel published it. Indeed there are Transformers fans who consider Bob Budiansky to be the real creator of the line and with very few exceptions he wrote every issue of the 55 issue run of that title.

Bob Budiansky is semi-retired from the comic book world these days. For a long while rumours circulated about him. The most common rumour was that he had become a recluse, withdrawn from the comic book world, bitter about his treatment and not wanting to speak about his past. Nothing could be farther from the truth. While it's true that he's found other pastures to play in, he now does recreations and commissions. Bob is a great guy to speak to and remains an artist above the rest of the pack.
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(click on any image to enlarge it)
DANIEL BEST: Let’s start at the start. Where were you born? Where did you come from?
BOB BUDIANSKY: That is a start. I was born in the Bronx, New York City.

DB: And where did you go to school?
BB: I went to public school in the Bronx, and then I went to college at the State University of New York at Buffalo.

DB: And when did you first become aware of comic books, what was your first comic book experience so to speak?
BB: Oh, that’s really probing. Ahh, I have two older brothers, so my first comic book experience was no doubt comic books that they brought into the house. In fact I have a very particular memory, are you with me?

DB: Yep.
BB: Right. I have a very particular memory of a comic book, which would have been Brave and the Bold #28, which introduced the Justice League of America, because I remember looking at it and I still remember a couple of scenes from that, and I remember that was about 1960 or 1961. Justice League of America eventually became my favourite comic book. I remember the very first comic book I ever bought with my own money was Justice League of America Number 6. The Wheel of Misfortune! was the name of the story, and I still have it.

DB: Oh, good God. Most people I speak to, they have thrown all their stuff out over the years.
BB: I wish I could say it was in pristine condition, but it’s not quite.

DB: So you sort of gravitated more towards the DCs than the Marvels?
BB: Oh, without a doubt. I was definitely a big DC fan for the first several years of my comic book collecting. But then I shifted over to Marvel for the last couple of years of my comic book collecting while I was still a kid, and then when I got to high school I stopped all my comic book purchases completely. I just turned off to it and then I did not get back involved with comics again until I think around my second year of college. A friend of mine showed me some comics that he had gotten that were unlike anything I remember from the days I used to collect comics.

In the 1960’s, the comic books were, if you’re familiar with that era, very black and white. There were the good guys, there were the bad guys. DC had a very clean style of artwork. Marvel’s artwork was a little funkier, with Jack Kirby and so on. But still, overall they looked like very traditional comic book art, at least to me, looking backward.

Well, anyway, in the 1970’s when I was in college, a friend of mine showed me some Conan comic books. First of all, the character was unlike anything I had seen before. He wasn’t exactly a goody two-shoes superhero. He was quite a mixture of things and very much more of a living, breathing person than a Superman or anything like that, and it added the elements of magic and fantasy. Plus, it had wonderful artwork by Barry Windsor-Smith and John Buscema, and that just blew me away, that feeling of “wow this is several steps ahead of where I left off back in the 1960’s”. So that got me interested in comic books again.

DB: So how did you actually get involved in comic books? I mean you sort of popped up from nowhere as an artist, what was your art training?
BB: When I was a kid I thought about growing up to become a comic book artist. If you had asked me at the end of eighth grade what I wanted to do when I grew up, I would say, “I want to be a comic book artist.” Then I went to a high school called Bronx High School of Science, which was an excellent high school in New York City. It’s still one of the best high schools in the country, in fact, and I always had an interest in science anyway. So as I got older I figured, “Well, it’s more practical for me to go into science. Who makes a living as a comic book artist?” and I actually went to college and I got a degree in Civil Engineering.

So you’re probably thinking, “Well, how does that prepare one to become a comic book artist?”

DB: That was my question.
BB: That’s not the most direct route that I took. Anyway, all that time when I was in college I was also drawing for the student newspaper as a sideline, and after a couple of years I become the Graphic Arts Editor. We had a student newspaper that came out three times as week. I typically had at least one illustration in every issue by the time I was the Graphic Arts Editor. With a friend of mine in my senior year there, I started my own comic strip in the newspaper.

So I had my hand in drawing all the time I was studying Civil Engineering. A friend of mine from the student newspaper graduated the same year I did. He wound up getting a job in New York City for Marvel Comics as an Editorial Assistant. I stayed in college for one more year for graduate school. So when I would come down to New York City during my spring break or Christmas break or whatever it was, I’d visit him at the Marvel offices. He encouraged me to submit an illustration or two, and I got a couple of things printed, and then he quit his job. From my college, 400 miles away, I interviewed over the telephone for his job as an Editorial Assistant in the Marvel British Department. And I got the job after talking to my future boss for about a half hour. My future boss was Larry Lieber, Stan Lee’s brother, and he was the head of the Marvel British Department at the time. Marvel’s British Department was not in England, it was in New York City. Marvel had not opened up a British branch yet.

So anyway, that’s how I got involved in comics. I was at the end of my first year of graduate school. I dropped out. I took the job at Marvel Comics. I already had some drawing ability, although I wasn’t trained in an art school or anything. I picked up a tremendous amount of experience and information just being around some really great artists. The two Marvel Art Directors at the time were John Romita and Marie Severin, and they were just wonderful as far as helping out and giving me pointers. Especially Marie, she was terrific. But John was great too, except I think he was busier so he wasn’t as available as Marie to give feedback. But he was also terrific. So after a couple of years of shuttling back and forth between freelance and Editorial I finally was able to get a gig as a regular artist for a while.

DB: It is a bit unusual because you were sort of doing pinups in one page and a few page stories there.
BB: Oh, you really know my history if you know that. Yeah, I started out doing pinups and things like that, yeah, and even lesser known is like I said, I worked for the British Department. Initially, the Marvel British Department was reprinting American stories in England, and the English schedule was weekly, as you might know, whereas the American schedule was monthly. I think we used to divide up a 20-page story or a 22-page story, whatever it was back then, we divided a story in half and then we would run two halves of two American stories in one single issue of a British book. And so every other issue of every other story needed a new splash page, and so people like myself and Ron Wilson and John Romita Junior and Michael Golden…and I’m trying to think of them all, a whole bunch of guys, got their start this way, drawing these splashes. This is back in the late 1970’s.

We all got our start doing these splash pages for the British books. That was a good way to train. We’d just do a splash page here and there. It wasn’t like a lot of pressure to do a whole comic book. From that a lot of careers developed. I did an occasional pinup, like you said, as well.

DB: I’ve spoken to a lot of artists over the time and pretty much all of them have pointed that “Oh yeah, I worked for Marvel UK at one stage,” and it’s incredible the amount of people. It must have been a good training ground.
BB: Just to clarify, when you say Marvel UK, what I’m talking about preceded Marvel UK. This is the Marvel British Department within the New York City offices, and then a lot of British artists came out of Marvel UK, perhaps, afterwards. But I’m talking about all of these American artists.

DB: I often get Marvel UK mixed up with the British Department. To me it’s all Marvel UK.
BB: Yeah, right, right, okay. But I wasn’t sure if you were making that distinction. Okay, well anyway. As you were saying, I did some pinups, and then, eventually after bouncing back and forth from staff to freelance for a couple of years, I finally quit staff again. I stayed on staff for a year initially, then went freelance. Most of the work I did at that time was actually non_illustration work for Marvel. It was production work, and I did some illustrations.
Then I went back on staff for about a year and a half or two years as an Assistant Editor, and then I quit to become a full-time artist, and my assignment was Ghost Rider.

DB: I always tell people that the Ghost Rider run you did was one of my favourite runs ever.
BB: Well, thank you very much.

DB: It was a great book to start with, but when you came on it with Dave Simons and Roger Stern and the rest of them, I mean, just that one issue where you started with the origin story that you retold with Johnny Blaze getting confession.
BB: That was a conscious effort to relaunch the book. The editor at the time, I think, was Tom DeFalco. Roger Stern was the writer, he was the new writer and the new artist, me. It was a conscious effort to give it a new look and a new breath of life or whatever, and it worked, actually, because sales throughout at least the first half or so of my run kept rising. People took notice, and then after Roger Stern left Marc DeMatteis came on the book and we still kept rising, and the only speed bump we hit in this whole thing was when Dave Simons, who of that team is the unsung hero, left. He used to come to the office dressed in leather. I mean, this was not an act, he’d come dressed in one of these black leather, zipper jackets.

I don’t know if he also wore leather pants. He might have worn them. But anyway, the point is, he knew how to ink leather, which was really important for Ghost Rider.

So when he left the book we never really were able to replace that look that he gave the book. The rest of the team was all somewhat saddened by his departure. Anyway, the book was cancelled, I think it was issue 81, which was about maybe five or six issues after he left. Thank you for saying those kind words about it. I enjoyed doing it at the time.

DB: Why was it cancelled? I mean, because it was just building and building and building. The artwork and the storylines were great; the artwork was some of the best that was appearing in Marvel books at the time.
BB: I don’t know how much you’re aware of what sales figures are in the American books. I’m not talking about Australia or England or any place. But at the time when Ghost Rider was cancelled we had brought sales up to maybe about 120,000 a month in the U.S., and then it started dropping, like I said, when Dave left the book, couldn’t replace that look. It started dropping, and I think it maybe went down to close to 105,000. At the time Jim Shooter, the Editor-in-Chief, wanted to launch a few new books. So he chose a few low-selling books and cancelled them to make room, and Ghost Rider was considered low-selling at 105,000. Now today…

DB: …People would kill for that.
BB: I don’t follow the comic book market very closely. I have been out of comics for, except for some little odds and ends, I’ve been pretty much out of comic books for over ten years. Well, today I think 105,000 would qualify a book to be in the top five or ten of sales. But that number was considered low enough to make a book worthy of cancellation back then.

I didn’t cry about it, I had my run on Ghost Rider, and I was ready to move onto something different and actually write. The day I was told the book was being cancelled I was offered six months’ worth of work as an artist, and soon after I was offered a full-time job as a full editor at Marvel. So, it’s like, “Okay, I did Ghost Rider, it was fun, I’m happy to move along”.

DB: After that you went on to be an editor for the most part.
BB: Yeah, for 13 years.

DB: That always made me wonder: I could never figure out whether you were an editor that drew occasionally or an artist that was an editor.
BB: Well, I was an artist. I was an editor who intended to be an artist and I got sidetracked. Like I said, back in junior high school in eighth grade and years before that too, I dreamed of growing up to become a comic book artist, which I can actually say I did for a while, and then I liked the editorial life. Drawing for me was always a struggle. It still is, and even now I’m struggling over the commissions that I’m doing for you.

It was always a struggle, and so I kind of welcomed the chance to take a break from it when I got the editorial job. At the time I didn’t know if I was going to stay on for a year or five years or ten years, I had no idea. But my job as an editor really developed over the years to a point where I really enjoyed it. It also gave me the opportunity to write. You might be aware that I have probably written more books for Marvel than I drew. But I never intended to be a writer.

DB: I suppose for me, I’m sure for a few other people as well, that’s the frustrating thing because I look at your artwork and especially on that Ghost Rider run, and all I wanted was more of it and it just sort of dried up. It was such a shame.
BB: I appreciate your saying that and I have a similar feeling sometimes. Like I probably should have toughed it out a little bit longer and really made a go of it and things would have all been different perhaps. But by dropping the artwork it released me, it kind of liberated me to try other things, and it got me the opportunity to do things I would never have been able to do if I had been just grinding out the artwork. And, to be honest, I was making a lot more money as a writer than as an artist, and as an editor than as an artist. So money had something to do with it as well.

If I was like a John Byrne who, besides being an excellent artist, was able to crank out a couple of books a month, things might have been different. But I could never do that. I could barely do one book a month. So there was a financial factor as well that I had to consider. I was happy to take the editorial job at that time.

Now looking back, since I’m not in comics anymore, maybe if I’d stuck it out as an artist I would’ve rose to a point of fame and I would be in such demand that I would be some superstar artist today… who knows. But anyway, you can’t look back like that. At the time it seemed like the right decision to make, and like I said, it did give me a chance to write and actually it gave me a little bit of a legacy that’s not related to my artwork, which is that I got involved with Transformers. Transformers may not be everybody’s style of comic book, but obviously there’s a brand new movie that just came out this summer, so it’s still a big deal all these years later. At the time, in 1983, I was given an opportunity to work on Transformers because nobody else in my office really wanted to. I was an editor and Jim Shooter came down the hall and said, “Who can do this work?” and so I was like the fourth person he asked or something. And I was able to do it, and Hasbro Toys really liked what I was doing, and I stuck with it for five years.

And so, again, I don’t know how much you’re familiar with what I’ve done in Transformers, but people have been interviewing me about it for years. You’re a very rare interviewer in that you’re interviewing me about my comic book career. Usually I get contacted on my Transformers career.

DB: It’s almost your legacy. You’re always going to be the Transformers guy, but to a lot of other people you are always going to be the Ghost Rider artist.
BB: Oh, it’s good too. I mean I’m not knocking any of it, I’m just saying by quitting artwork it gave me an opportunity to do things that I probably would never have gotten to do.

DB: Did you see the Ghost Rider movie?
BB: No, but it got terrible reviews. I skipped it. I did see the Transformers movie though because it got good reviews and I liked it. Did you see the Ghost Rider movie?

DB: I did indeed.
BB: And were the reviews correct?

DB: I liked the look of the Ghost Rider itself. I thought that was good. But it wasn’t the greatest movie I have ever seen, that’s for sure. It could have been a lot worse I suppose, but then I’m not a huge fan of Nicholas Cage. He sort of doesn’t move me that much in movies, and then in this one he was right over the top, and as a friend of mine once said “more ham than a pizza with the lot”. It was pretty bad. But again, the Ghost Rider itself looked great.
BB: Oh, right.

DB: As a writer who draws, how does that help you write scripts for other artists, and conversely how did it help you when you were drawing?
BB: When I was writing scripts for other artists, especially Transformers and then I created a book after Transformers called Sleepwalker, I always had in mind what was visual, what would make good visuals, what would be a good cover scene. In fact, on the Transformers and to a lesser degree on Sleepwalker, I sketched out most of the covers. I didn’t draw most of the covers. I drew about four or five Transformers covers. I wrote about 50 issues of it. The vast majority of those covers, I did the cover sketch. So I always had in mind as I was writing it, “Where’s my cover scene?” I would kind of write backwards from that. I’d start with that scene in mind sometimes, not all the time, and I would… I try to give something juicy to the artist so that they can work with it. Sometimes with greater success than others and sometimes I might look back at some of my stories and I think, “Oh, they’re kind of wordy, I wish I could cut a few scenes here and there”.

But anyway, I try to make things visual. Try to make things so that exposition happens while something else is happening instead of a couple of characters sitting around talking to each other. I’ll throw in a little anecdote about Ghost Rider. When I worked with Roger Stern on the book Roger did things the traditional Marvel way. He would turn in a plot, I would draw it then he would get back my drawings and he would do a script.

But with Marc DeMatteis on Ghost Rider, we collaborated. If you look at the credits it was co-plotted by both of us and he scripted. So we would get on the phone with each other and, this is the way I recall it, he might disagree: Typically he would come up with the story, he’d come up with the overall structure of the story and the different emotional changes the characters were going through or whatever angst that they were experiencing, and then I would go back and I would put in the visual scenes, the big action moments. That would be my contribution to the plot: “Okay, now how can we make this thing look exciting and have a big moment where something happens that’s really visual?” So it was actually a really good partnership, we really enjoyed working that way.

DB: It worked well. You only worked for Marvel; you never worked for DC, never worked for any other company by the look of it. Not that I can find.
BB: That’s pretty much true. There was one point when I was freelance years and years ago; I was approached by Al Milgrom, who was another guy that worked mostly for Marvel, but at the time he was working for DC. It was probably the late 1970’s when he approached me to do something for DC, and I tried drawing a story for them, and it just never took off. So that was my one aborted attempt to work for DC.

The only other company I’ve worked for was recently I did a four-issue adaptation of the original Transformers animated movie for IDW, who’s the current publisher of the Transformers. I did that last summer. Summer of 2006.

DB: People were leaving Marvel in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. They were going left, right and centre. They were either going for DC, Jim Shooter took a whole pile with him to Valiant and…
BB: Well, Jim Shooter was escorted to the door at Marvel, too. So he was looking for other opportunities. It wasn’t like Marvel had a place for him… he was told to leave. So there’re other factors there. But I was at Marvel because Marvel was very, very good to me for most of that time. All through the late 1980’s, early 1990’s, my career was on the rise as an editor, so I had no real reason to leave.

In fact, the closest I came to leaving was internal. For a time I was doing a lot of work with our Licensing Department. At one point the Director of Licensing kind of made a half-hearted attempt to have me go over to Licensing and leave Editorial. At that time being a Marvel editor was about the pinnacle of one’s comic book career anywhere. So I wasn’t about to leave. It didn’t last, but being a Marvel editor looked good at the time. So I kind of said, “Thank you, but no, I think I will stay where I am”.

DB: You rose to the top; I mean you rose to become Editor-in-Chief at one stage.
BB: Yeah, I was. Well, before Marvel completely busted in the mid-1990’s…

DB: Fell apart.
BB: …Marvel was decentralised. There were five editorial lines and I became the Editor-in-Chief of the Spider-Man line for the last, about last year and a half of my time there. Then it was restructured again, and then I was out of there. But for that last year or so I was the Editor-in-Chief of the Spider-Man line.

Prior to that I was Executive Editor. I was in charge of all the Marvel trading cards, I was in charge of the Marvel poster program, I had a lot of other responsibilities that were not specifically about comic books, which I liked because I had been an editor of just comic books for a number of years and then I kind of branched out. I liked the diversity of opportunities there.

DB: You were an insider at the time, so how did you see the implosion of Marvel because, it just really went belly up there in the mid-1990’s?
BB: Well, interesting question. There were a lot of setbacks to Marvel from the early 1990’s until the late 1990’s. I left in January of 1996, and it was kind of like watching a train wreck in slow motion up until then. First, there was the defection of all the guys to Image. Okay, there were reasons for that. Comics were hotter than ever, and these guys had made names for themselves and they felt that Marvel was exploiting a lot of their creations. I guess they wanted to go out and create their own stuff and own it. I couldn’t blame them.

A couple of years earlier, in 1989 I believe, Ron Perelman and his group bought Marvel. Perelman is a billionaire. I don’t know, I can’t put it into words exactly, you probably have some familiarity with him, but basically he buys up companies and tries to leverage them into big profits for himself and for his partners and so on, and I guess that’s the way of the world.

Well anyway, so he soon took Marvel public, which means he made a public offering on the stock market so investors could buy shares of Marvel, and for the first couple of years, this is like around 1990, 1991, comic book sales were just booming. For the first couple of years it was terrific. The stock price kept going up and up and up, and everybody was making money and there were big bonuses.

When you put your company in a position like that, the investors expect that if you made a 50% increase in profits last year, then they expect that that you should be making a 50% increase in profits next year. My feeling was that Ronald Perelman went ahead or his management group went ahead and they had Marvel acquire all these other companies to try to add more money to the bottom line.

Meanwhile, they were expecting Editorial to continue producing comic books and continue to grow at the same rate that we had started growing in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. And I remember being in meetings with Tom DeFalco, who was the Editor-in-Chief at the time, and some of the other senior editors, and we were kind of laughing, because on the one hand our heads were on the line, that sense of, “Hey, you guys, you’ve got to keep doing this”. But on the other hand we knew there’s a limit to how many people are out there who are going to buy these comic books. You can’t expect a huge, whatever it was, 50% increase in sales and profits every year, it doesn’t work that way. So… but that’s the pressures of the financial markets.
So anyway, one of the responses was for Marvel to acquire all these other companies, which included Panini, Fleer and Skybox, which are trading card companies, what was it, oh, Malibu Comics. I mean, they bought up a distributorship. Anyway, they bought up all these companies and none of them performed well for various reasons.

So Marvel, which initially was a small publishing company, went from a small publishing company to a conglomerate with about $600M or $700M in debt by 1996 or 1997, and it was heading that way for a couple of years. So there were huge waves of layoffs that started in 1995 because they had to cut back somewhere to start saving money.

I’m not sure what your original question was. But we saw all this coming, one catastrophe after another, because of the mismanagement of the people who were running the company. They just took Marvel and they put it into an impossible position.

As far as my personal experience, in January of 1995, I think it was two days after New Year’s Day, there was a big wave of layoffs, like 100 to 200 people got laid off. Okay, it wasn’t me, but maybe 20% of the editorial staff, all up and down the company, all the different departments. A year later things were still going bad. By this time there was a new president of the company. He had realigned the realignment of the five Editors-in-Chief and went back to one Editor-in-Chief, which was Bob Harras.

So I remember the week before New Years Eve going out to lunch with a bunch of my friends who were also Senior Editors, fellow Editors-in-Chief, and going down the line of the editors who were sitting at that table, and I said, “Okay, January 1st is coming around again, there’s going to be another big wave of layoffs”. We all knew it, we all could feel it, and I predicted exactly who at this table was not going to be here anymore and I predicted myself as one of them.

So that’s how I looked upon it, it was very obvious what was going on, and sure enough, two days after New Years Day, just like the previous year, there was another massive wave of layoffs in 1996, and I was one of them, as well as many other editors of that era. And so that’s my story.

DB: It’s just insane in a way. I’ve read about it in a couple of the books, but just to think of how badly it was managed at the time and everything was just going…
BB: Did you read the book Comic Wars?

DB: I did.
BB: Yeah, that explains it probably far better than I can.

DB: I was just sort of wondering from your perspective.
BB: From the inside point of view, I wasn’t sitting in the circle of power that was making all these decisions, obviously. But we could see, we, editors who don’t have any MBA’s, we’re not corporate managers or merger and acquisition gurus or anything like that. We could see that they were just driving this company into the ground. They were just making one bad decision after another. I don’t think any of us had an idea of the amount of debt that Marvel was acquiring. But we knew these were bad business decisions that were following one on the heels of another one, and it almost killed the company. It certainly ended my career there and it ended many other people’s careers.

DB: What did you do when you left Marvel or when you were shown the door at Marvel, I suppose?
BB: I wasn’t sure what to do so I went back to school. I knew at that time, this is 1996, that there was something called multimedia out there. I wanted to learn multimedia, so I went back to school, took a few classes in different multimedia aspects like marketing on the Internet. I don’t even think the Internet was such a big name at the time. I think it was more like coming up with product ideas for CD-ROM games and things like that. I forget the names of the courses.
But I also took Photoshop and Illustrator classes and things like that. Eventually I gravitated toward being more of a graphic designer working on a computer. I kind of reinvented myself, and so eventually I wound up as an Assistant Creative Director at Scholastic, which is a children’s book publisher here in the States.

DB: Now, was there ever any temptation to get back into comics? Did anyone ever approach you or you approach anyone else?
BB: I made some initial inquiries. Right after I left Marvel, I went over to DC Comics. I spoke to a couple of people there. But my gut feeling was that comic books was a shrinking industry, at least at the time. In fact, it’s still true to some extent; I’ll get back to that in a minute, but it was a shrinking industry. I compare it to what radio was like when television came along—too much competition for comic books from computer games and the like.

With a shrinking industry, sales were going down. There were a lot of people chasing a shrinking number of full-time jobs. I didn’t want to be one of them. I felt that it was time to move on. Although I loved comics when I was a kid, I wasn’t as passionate about them as lots of people at Marvel were, who were probably as passionate about comics as adults as they were as children, even more so. I wasn’t one of those. I enjoyed working in the industry, but it wasn’t my entire life. I didn’t feel like I had to be there for the rest of my life.

So I made a conscious decision not to pursue another job in comic books. I didn’t feel it was prudent. I thought it’s a shrinking industry, and to some extent it’s true because what comics has really become today is not so much a huge publishing industry… it’s a huge licensing industry. So the amount of publishing that’s going on today I don’t think compares to what it was like in the 1980’s as far as sales go, and probably the number of titles have gone down also. I don’t know that for a fact, but I do know sales are nowhere near what they used to be and the publishing end of the business is not as healthy as it used to be.

But it does support the licensing, which is the movies and all the other products and all that that are created based on comic book characters these days. Perhaps if I had made a decision to try to get back into comics I might have hung on and gotten back into the licensing aspects of it or something, who knows what would’ve happened. But as an editor and a sometime writer, sometime artist, I didn’t feel like it was a good place to further pursue a career at that time.

DB: Now, back into the comic books, I mean, was there ever a title you wanted to draw that you never got to?
BB: I guess two of my favourite comic book characters when I was at Marvel were Conan and Spider-Man. I liked Daredevil too. Ghost Rider would not have been my first choice for a lot of reasons, but that was what was offered to me and I kind of felt that it was a good opportunity. It was one of these second-tier characters that had been kind of left on the sidelines for a while. I feel I had a chance to make it mine with that opportunity. So I appreciated that.

If I had drawn Spider-Man, I would have been a fill-in artist and just another Spider-Man artist that people forget as soon as John Romita Junior came back on the book or something. So if I had stuck it out, I think I would’ve liked to do one of those characters that I just mentioned.

DB: You edited Spider-Man, you edited Daredevil at one stage.
BB: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so I had my hand in it in different ways. With Daredevil I might have been involved in helping out some plotting. With Spider-Man I know when I was Editor-in-Chief I was involved a lot more with plot and with cover ideas and so on and so forth, and hiring different creative talent to do the books and so on. So I had a different set of responsibilities when I was the Editor-in-Chief. That was good too, except, unfortunately, my timing was poor because I walked into the clone saga, which you might be familiar with, and I had to pick up a lot of storylines that were already laid out for me, and they were not good storylines. I was kind of thrown into a lion’s den the way I look at it now. And maybe I did as good a job as I could’ve, but I think I could’ve done a better job, because those stories were not the highlight of my career.

DB: And you mentioned that you worked on Sleepwalker. I think you created it, did you not?
BB: Yes I did.

DB: Yeah, what happened there? How did all that come about for you?
BB: Like I said, being an editor allowed me to do other things, and one of them was write because, and this is no slight on writers, but as far as I’m concerned, it takes me a lot less time to write a book than to draw a book. So whereas I could write a monthly book and keep a full-time job as an editor, I could never illustrate a book on a monthly basis and keep a full-time job as an editor.

So after writing Transformers for five years and begging to get off of it because five years was more than enough, I finally got off of it. I had been kicking around this idea in my head for several years about this Sleepwalker character. I fleshed it out, I submitted a proposal to the Editor-in-Chief at the time, Tom DeFalco, and after he kicked it back to me a couple of times for some revisions we agreed on doing the book, which was quite an accomplishment, because at the time we were getting dozens of proposals from all sorts of people. Many were people who had established comic book careers. It wasn’t just because I was editor that I got the chance to write my own book. But people who had great comic book credentials would submit ideas for new titles, and they would go through a whole committee process, and some would make it but most of them would be bounced out, out the door, because they just didn’t add up.

Anyway, so I had the chance to write Sleepwalker, I went through the process, the people on the committee and the Editor-in-Chief. In fact the Editor-in-Chief wouldn’t even read my proposal until it went through, I think it was called the New Projects Committee, and it got passed through. Only then would it go to Tom DeFalco, and once he approved it I had the opportunity to write it.

So I was real happy that I was able to create something and write it and it was a modest success. It lasted about two and a half years, maybe almost three years, and so I had my chance.

DB: You coloured that book as well.
BB: I did as much as I could without drawing it. I designed the character, I designed most of the villains, I designed a couple of the secondary characters, I coloured as many of them as I could. I just couldn’t draw it [laughter] because I was still a full-time editor. But I did get my number one choice to draw most of the first 17 issues, so I was real happy about that. Brett Blevins was the artist, and he’s a far better artist than I ever was, so I was real thrilled that he was able to do it.

DB: I think you sold yourself short a little bit there. You didn’t do much inking over your time though.
BB: That’s true, yeah, I was not known as an inker. I barely ever inked anything. Just another skill. Most pencillers just pencilled. If they could manage to pencil and ink a book in a month they would do that. Eventually John Byrne started inking his own work, and so on. But I consider myself a penciller so I stuck to that pretty much.

DB: And you’re fairly well known as a cover artist back in the day as well; you did a lot of covers. BB: Some covers, yeah. The reason I got involved with Ghost Rider is because I started illustrating the covers probably about three years before I started drawing the book. I’ll give you a little anecdote about the first cover of Ghost Rider I drew. I forget the number of the issue, I think it was in the 30’s (it was issue #33). But Don Perlin was the artist and it had a spaceship on the cover. So I was given a cover sketch—I may have even done the cover sketch—and I guess at the time the editor, I think it was Jim Salicrup, felt that the book needed a fresher look on the cover or something, I don’t know.

Anyway, he asked me to draw the cover, and so I saw the pages that Don had drawn and they showed a spaceship, which is kind of funny when you think of Ghost Rider and a spaceship in the same book, but that’s another subject, I didn’t write the story, so no comment. [laughter] But in any case, there’s this big spaceship hovering overhead, and it probably is around the time of one of the Star Wars movies, one of the first three, not the second three. And so I saw what Don drew and then I drew that spaceship on the cover, but I added all that little noodly detail that Star Wars spaceships made famous. Up until then you had flying saucers and rocket ships; Star Wars really kicked it up a couple of levels.

So I took what Don did and I added all these details to it and then when Don Perlin saw what I did he took back his pencils and changed all the spaceships to match what I did. So I influenced him, I guess. But anyway, I guess from that cover on, the editors, whoever was the editor of the Ghost Rider book, felt I was a good choice for the cover art.

DB: One of the things that got me back into reading Ghost Rider was the covers.
BB: Well, I guess the editors knew what they were doing there. [laughter]

DB: Some of them don’t match up, yeah.
BB: That was the idea.

DB: You probably did more cover art than what you think.
BB: Perhaps, yeah, it’s been a while. But I know I did it, like I said, from somewhere in the mid 30’s or so until issue 81. I did probably the majority, I’m sure I did the majority of the covers. I don’t know how many it adds up to.

DB: You did some iconic covers.
BB: Oh, that’s good to know. [laughter] Yeah, and it was definitely fun to do, but again, I was on staff at the time so when I was drawing Ghost Rider I was an Assistant Editor and I couldn’t handle more than an occasional cover. I still had a full-time job and I was not the fastest artist around. So I was just happy to get an occasional assignment like that.

DB: And the second issue that sticks in my mind of Ghost Rider is the Freaks issue.
BB: Freaks issue, right.

DB: It always reminds me of Bernie Wrightson.
BB: Well, I was looking at Bernie Wrightson at that period of time. In fact, he had a graphic novel around that time called Creepshow, and I know I had that. Anyway, I don’t know if it came out before or after I had Ghost Rider in my hands, but I was definitely looking at Bernie Wrightson stuff, and I think a lot of the look of Ghost Rider is due to Dave Simons. He really added so much to the feel of that book. You can’t say enough about what he added to it. I was also looking at the early Mike Ploog stuff and I was definitely looking at Bernie Wrightson, without a doubt.


DB: Probably after Ghost Rider and Sleepwalker and obviously the Transformers stuff, the longest thing that you did was with Sub-Mariner.
BB: That was just a four-issue limited series and frankly that was not one of my stellar moments. That was one of those jobs I referred to earlier when I was told that Ghost Rider was being cancelled and I was offered six months’ worth of illustration work. That was one of the jobs, that was a four-issue limited series, and I took that and then soon after I was offered the editor’s job. So I was doing that while I was starting up an editor’s job, and it was really too much for me.

I look back at that Sub-Mariner series and go, “Well parts of that job I’m very happy with, but a lot of that job I’m sure I didn’t spend enough time on to bring it up to the level I might have brought it up to if I felt I had more time to spend on it”. That’s a very long-winded way of saying, “I probably hacked out a couple of pages here and there”. [laughter]

So anyway, I’m not really happy with it, and also, as much as I loved working with Marc DeMatteis on Ghost Rider, he wrote that limited series, not my favourite limited series, not my favourite storyline that he came up with. I thought the storyline was not great, it was okay.

The one thing I’ll tell you about that Sub-Mariner series that I really liked was the covers. I really enjoyed drawing those four covers. A little known fact is those four covers fit together as one giant image. If you have those four comic books, put them together one and two on top, three and four on the bottom, and they’ll fit together.

DB: I wasn’t aware of that. Who were some of the standout people you worked with other than obviously Roger Stern and Marc DeMatteis?
BB: Oh, well again, most of my experience was as an editor. So I worked with some great people among my fellow editors, like Mark Gruenwald, Tom DeFalco, Ralph Macchio, Carl Potts. I learned an awful lot from Jim Shooter. He wasn’t always the easiest boss to work for, but he was brilliant in his way and he really taught me a lot just by being around him. I appreciate everything I learned from him. And like I said before I worked earlier in my career with Marie Severin and with John Romita. John Romita was there for basically all the years I was there, as Art Director. He was always a great guy to work with.

Generally, most people over the years that I worked with up there are pretty good people. So I’m mentioning a lot of people I felt either I learned a lot from or I was just good friends with, and plus they were talented as well. Some of those guys were good friends of mine back then and they were terrific editors and good writers and so on.

I could go down a list. But I have very fond memories of most people I worked with, so I’ll leave it at that, and I’m not going to talk about the people I don’t have fond memories about. [laughter]

DB: No, it’s alright. Despite what may appear on my website, I’m not always about the negative stuff. [laughter] I’m getting known now as the guy with that Vinnie Colletta interview. [laughter]
BB: That’s right. I looked at that. When Jeff pointed me towards your website, I noticed that Vinnie Colletta interview right off the bat. I didn’t read the whole thing, but I was there during that period when Shooter was evicted. Vinnie was a very close buddy of Shooter, and that was obviously his point of view on what was going on. But I wasn’t really in the middle of that. But, yeah, Vinnie was a character. [laughter] He was a very interesting character.

DB: One of the most common questions that most people I know ask me, “Does he sound like a gangster?”
BB: Who, Vinnie Colletta?

DB: Yeah.
BB: He sounded like he could play one [laughter] in The Sopranos or something like that but, [laughter] you know, he was an artist. But he had a certain accent that placed him in a certain social rung, which could include being an artist. Did you ever see or hear John Buscema speak?

DB: I’ve heard John Buscema speak, from a tape once.
BB: Okay. John Buscema, in my opinion, he just draws, when he was alive obviously, he just drew beautifully just like, you know, he was like… he could draw anything, and draw it with grace and power and beauty. If it was a woman she was beautiful. If it was a man he was handsome. He could just draw anything. But when he talked he didn’t sound like an artist, not in my opinion anyway, and he himself said he would rather be running a restaurant. [laughter] He sounded like a truck driver to me. He sounded like some blue-collar guy. But you look at his artwork, and especially the more he moved away from superheroes and to fantasy and drawing other non-superhero stuff--it just had so much grace and beauty, and you would just not associate this guy drawing that if you heard him talk. He’d just talk one way and he just drew another way, well, at least in my opinion. So my point is, you can’t tell what a person does by the way they talk.

He gave one of the best art lessons I ever took. My first year up at Marvel, he invited all the up-and-coming young artists to a one hour seminar that he gave, and he was brilliant. He just kind of cut right to the meat of the problem, he said, “This is how you do it, this is how you approach it”. This is going back 30 years; I’m not going to remember every detail of it. But I learned a lot.
He was just brilliant, he just had it down, he knew the whole science of it. So, anyway, the seminar didn’t make me as good an artist as John Buscema, but it helped.

DB: I mean, I always looked at John Buscema and thought, “how does this guy draw?” I mean it just doesn’t look like he would be able to pick up a pen and draw but… BB: There you go.

DB: He just didn’t look the part.
BB: Exactly, that’s my point, that’s my point. Except for the goatee, the little artist-type goatee. [laughter] I think that was his only deference to being an artist, is that the right word? His only way of saying, “Okay, I’m an artist”. [laughter] But he was a wonderful guy. I had the privilege and pleasure of working with him on a couple of projects and it was a lot of fun. He illustrated Labyrinth for me, which was a movie adaptation. He probably did a couple of other odds and ends for me also, and he was always great to work with.

DB: He seemed to have no limit to his talent. There’s always that story that he saw The Wizard of Oz once and then drew the comic book from memory. [laughter]
BB: I didn’t hear that one but it wouldn’t surprise me, and he probably made it look better than the movie. [laughter] He probably drew it the way he imagined the movie looked [laughter], which was probably better than the movie. The movie was no slouch, the movie was pretty brilliant, you know.

DB: Oh yeah, he had imagination.
BB: Yeah, yeah.

DB: Now it’s a shame that you never worked at DC because I can only think of how something like a Batman would have looked especially after that Ghost Rider stuff.
BB: Oh, well thanks. Marvel did it’s best to keep me around. In the early 1980’s, as opposed to the mid 1990’s, Marvel wanted people like me. They weren’t showing me the door. As soon as Ghost Rider disappeared they were rushing to keep me. So at no time did I say to myself, “Oh no, I think I’m going to try DC Comics now”.

DB: There was a bit of an exodus though around about that time.
BB: In which time?

DB: From about the early to mid 1980’s onwards, where George Perez, Frank Miller, Marv Wolfman, John Byrne, Gene Colan, a whole pile of Marvel creators.
BB: You probably know the history better than me if you’re, I guess you’re somewhat of an historian with all these people you’re interviewing. A lot of that was just personality clashes. I think a lot of the people you’re mentioning had difficulties working with Jim Shooter as Editor-in-Chief. I wasn’t in the middle of it, so I’m not going to say for sure this guy couldn’t get along with that guy. But I knew there was a lot of dissention as a result of Jim Shooter being Editor-in-Chief, and it was accumulating. When he first took over in the late 1970’s he was great because Marvel at that time had a reputation of not meeting deadlines. Books would have a cover showing a new story in it, and then you’d open it up and there’d be a reprint in it. He ended that.

Jim Shooter was excellent at organising the editorial teams and getting books to be shipped on time and getting away from all those reprints. He was excellent at expanding the line. There was a big period of expansion with him as Editor-in-Chief. I think he brought a lot more discipline to the way stories were created and produced, and he worked to get writers to actually put stories into each book and so on.

But on the other hand, I think there were certain talents that at one point or another just chafed at working with him for whatever reason, so they moved on.

DB: He certainly was a polarising sort of a character, that’s for sure. How did you find working with him?
BB: Like I said earlier, he was very instructive. He gave me a lot of opportunities, which I really appreciate. Toward the end of his reign as Editor-in-Chief, I, like many of my peers, was probably having more difficulties with him. I think he was just going through a phase. I think Jim Shooter is actually a perfectionist and when you’re a perfectionist sometimes there’s only one way of doing it and it has to be your way. If you see somebody else doing something a different way, it’s hard to accommodate that. And in a creative field like comic books, certainly there’s a terrible way of doing comic books and there’s a perfect way of doing comic books. But there has to be some wiggle room for some other points of view, otherwise when you do get to working with certain talents who really can go to any company and find work, if you don’t give them a little wiggle room then they’re going to leave.

So as an editor I worked with him very well, generally. But I could see the writing on the wall then that he was becoming, like you said, a polarising figure. He became a polarising figure not only with the creative community but within the company itself with his superiors.

DB: Hmm, it’s such a shame. So ten years, no comic books.
BB: Who me?

DB: Yeah, you. [laughter] You sort of dropped off the planet…
BB: Oh, well I appreciate your saying that. I don’t know if there’s a huge audience out there saying that but…[laughter]

DB: For a while there it was, like you’d dropped off the face of the earth, the planet. [laughter]
BB: Well, you know, you move on. Right now I’m a freelance graphic designer. Another job that came to me through virtually no effort of my own, I live in a small town in New Jersey and I became my town’s Recreation Director, which I hardly prepared for in my previous career. It’s only a part-time job. Even though you said I dropped off the face of the earth, people in my town know who I am! [laughter] So it all depends on what part of the earth you’re looking at, you know.

DB: Too true, too true. I mean, and then you started to do the commissions. How are you finding that?
BB: I’m enjoying it, I’m enjoying it, but I’ve lost my discipline. For instance, the commissions I’m doing for you, I started doing them in July. It doesn’t take me that long to do a drawing, but I get another job that has a deadline or the Recreation Department work comes up or whatever, and I get distracted. Anyway, my goal in the next month or two is to become much more disciplined. So I sit down, I get this work done and I get the positive feedback of having it done and enjoying it, and maybe what you’re alluding to, which is me getting back into the comic book business, will actually come about as a result of that.

Part of me thinks I’ve always been a frustrated artist. You know I always wanted to be an artist when I was a kid, I gave it a go, I got detoured in a major way and maybe now is the time for me to get back to it, I don’t know. But it’s a very labour-intensive and time-intensive process for me. So it’s not the easiest thing for me to do.

DB: But if someone came along and said “Look we’d love a pinup, we’d love a cover”?

BB: Yeah, I’d do it. When I was working with IDW on that four-issue comic book series for the Transformers adaptation, at one point the publisher, Chris Ryall, suggested that maybe I would do an alternate version of one of the covers. But he never came to me and asked me to do it actually, and frankly the artist that he had doing the covers, doing the whole series, he was far better at drawing robots than I ever was. [laughter] But I had drawn a few Transformers covers for Marvel. Actually, when I drew the Transformers covers that I did I typically picked out the ones that featured a human prominently on it [laughter] because although I drew the robots too, my sole interest was not just drawing robots. I wanted to draw people.

DB: I’m waiting for word to get out that you’re doing commissions because you’ll be swamped.
BB: Yeah, well, I have to get more proficient at it, I have to get more of them out there. But you’re right. Jeff [Bob’s agent who provides him with art commissions] is great. Every time I send in a finished commission, the next day or later that same day he says, “Okay, I have another person lined up for you”. So it’s really up to me to get the work out because it seems like there’re some interested parties out there.

DB: Oh, I think there’s a long list that he’s got, he’s probably just not telling you how long. [laughter]
BB: Okay, he doesn’t want to make me sweat, okay. [laughter]

DB: I know when I initially approached him about something else and he mentioned it and I went, “Wow, put me on that list”. When he finally came around to it I said, “I thought you’d forgotten or, you know, you’d stopped drawing,” and he went, “No, no, no”, “Good, good”.
BB: Yeah, people come up with all sorts of theories about me. Not that there’re so many people out there talking about me. But over the years I’ve learned people come up with all sorts of theories about me who have never spoken to me, who don’t know me. And then it was probably like what you said, I dropped off the face of the earth. So they hear, “Oh, he doesn’t do interviews”. Well, I do interviews if you ask me! [laughter]

DB: I’ve got to admit that was one of the ones I’d heard. When I launched the site a few years ago I said to a couple of people, “I have a list of people I want to interview,” and your name was up at the top of them because of the Ghost Rider stuff for a start, and pretty much everyone I’d spoken to said, “Oh no, he hates comic books, wants nothing more to do with them and doesn’t do interviews.”, and I thought, “Oh, okay”.
BB: But see, no, that’s not true. [laughter] I hate comics? My point is people come up with all these theories about me based on the fact I’m not in comics anymore, so I must hate them. I don’t know, I don’t know why they think that. But no, no, I still, like I said, I still have the number six issue of Justice League of America. If I hated comics I would’ve gotten rid of it a long time ago. [laughter]

DB: Absolutely. No, because that’s what surprised me when I’ve asked Jeff, I said, “Just sound out the waters very delicately and see whether or not he would be interested in doing a little interview,” and when he came back and said, “Yeah, he’d love to”, “Holy crap you’re kidding?” One artist told me that he considered you to be something like the Howard Hughes of comic books, only without the money.
BB: What was that, one artist said what?

DB: Said that you were the Howard Hughes of comic books only without the money. You are just a recluse. [laughter] And I thought, that didn’t really give me much hope. I thought, “Oh God”.
BB: I’m only a recluse because people haven’t approached me. I don’t go out there. I’ve been asked to go to a couple of conventions and things like that. I don’t go make an effort to spend my weekends in some other city away from my family to just be at a comic book convention. Does that mean that I’m a recluse? No, it means I have other things to do with my life.

So it doesn’t make me a recluse, it just makes me, it just means, like I’ve told you, that I’ve been out of comics for most of the time for over ten years. I worked at Scholastic for six years, I’ve been a freelance graphic designer, Recreation Director for my town. It’s not like I’m living in a hole under the ground. It’s just that I’ve moved on and done other things. So comics is not especially a vital part of my life right now. But it doesn’t mean I dislike them or anything.
Same thing with Transformers. People came up with these theories about me without ever talking to me, and as I’ve explained in a couple of interviews about Transformers, I take it you’re not into Transformers which is perfectly fine, I’m not making any judgment of you so, perfectly understandable.

But there are probably thousands, tens of thousands of people your age who grew up with the Transformers. I’m assuming you’re probably around that age, growing up in the 1980’s, and they’ve never let them go. They’re 20-something, 30-something, whatever age they are, and they are just totally immersed in the Transformers universe.

And so when they’ve contacted me for one reason or another, like for an interview for instance, they don’t understand how I’m not as passionate about the Transformers as they are now, even though I worked on them for so long. All I could basically say is, “Well, I enjoyed working on them while I did it, but it was a job, and then after I finished that job I moved onto the next job”. And that may sound very mercenary, but that’s just the way it is. It’s the same thing with comic books. I did comic books. I was in comic books for 20 years and it was great while it lasted and then I made a conscious decision to move on.

DB: No, but it is an interesting thing. I suppose part of the theories that surround you is because a lot of artists now, pretty much anyone that’s everyone and even people who weren’t anyone, have websites, they have galleries everywhere, they have representatives, they sell their art all over the places and…
BB: See, now you’ve touched on my biggest frustration, which is I started working on a website like a year and a half ago. [laughter] I built one for my Recreation Department in my town but I haven’t built my own. [laughter] So I do aspire to do that. [laughter] So stay tuned and one day there will be a Bob Budiansky website and it will have all my various services available. I know I’ve checked out some of the other artists’ websites to see what they’re up to. So it’s not like something I’ve turned my back on, it’s just something I haven’t got my act together about.
I’m aware that once I get my name up there I’ll be contacted by more people than probably I would be able to handle. But I’ve been busy up till now. So, even though I could probably be a little busier, with my various other enterprises I’ve been busy enough. Actually, I’m approaching a slow period in my other work right now so I’m hoping to get back to building the website. I’m aware my website will get a response if I just have it up there, because a person like Jeff is a great example. Jeff did excellent detective work to track me down and find my email address. And he’s not the first one. There’re several other people over the years who have contacted me from out of the blue, and this is without me even trying. I don’t even have my name up there on a website yet.

So I’m aware that once my name is up there it will be a more publicised way or easier-to-reach way for people to contact me; other things might happen.

DB: You’re probably better off with the recluse. I mean it’s your reputation, you know. [laughter]
BB: Well, I’m not a movie star. Nobody’s going to be knocking on my door, I don’t think. [laughter] I’m not that big a name, so I’ll take it as it comes. If and when I get the website up I’m sure I’ll be able to handle it. Have you ever visited Mike Zeck’s website?

DB: Yes I have, yes.
BB: I visited his several months ago, and basically what he says is, “Enough! I can’t handle anymore, I’m not taking anymore waiting-list people”. So if I should ever get to that level of success like Mike Zeck, I’ll worry about it then. [laughter]

He’s another nice guy, since you’re asking about all the nice people I worked with. I loved working with Mike Zeck over the years, he’s a great guy.

DB: Were you involved in the Secret War series? It seems everyone else I’ve spoken to had a part.
BB: I was the editor of the second series.

DB: It seems everyone I’ve spoken to that drew anything from Marvel at the time drew something in those books.
BB: Well, probably because the books were so late, you’ve probably heard this story if you’ve talked to other people. The books were so late that people had to be dragged in left and right to do the books. Now, I’ll give you another little anecdote about that Secret Wars 2 book. As you know, Jim Shooter was the writer of it and he was also the Editor-in-Chief. There was an office tradition at that time, whenever an editor took over a book that Jim Shooter was writing they would fire him [laughter] because the only chance anyone had to fire Shooter was when he first became the editor of a book Shooter was writing. Shooter was a nightmare to work with because he couldn’t keep to a schedule. It wasn’t as if he was a prima donna to work with as a writer, it was just that he was always really late, and Secret Wars is the prime example of that.

So I became the editor of the Secret Wars 2 book and Jim Shooter was again the writer, he was the creator of the whole idea. Carl Potts, who was also an editor at the time, was a real stickler for meeting deadlines. We were friends, and he came to me and said, “You’ve got to fire him”. [laughter] Because when Secret Wars 1 was around everybody else’s books got bumped to the side of the production room, or the Marvel Bullpen as it was called, so that Secret Wars could be produced, because it had to be done at the last minute and all hands were needed on deck.

So when Secret Wars 2 came around, Carl Potts, it may have been after the first issue, which was probably another one of those disasters that had to be done at the last minute or redone at the last minute, Carl Potts said to me, “You’ve got to fire him, you’ve got to fire him,” and I said “No, because it would be worse if he was the Editor-in-Chief looking over my shoulder. If I hired a different writer what would happen is I would get the whole book put together, drawn, written, coloured, etcetera, it would go to his desk and, because he didn’t write it, at the last moment he would ask for it to be redone all over again. So I’m better off keeping him as the writer where he’s doing it all along, even if it’s late. At least he’s involved in the process along the way and he’s not going to reject his own story. I’m better off if he’s doing it that way than if I fire him as the writer, because then he’s going to, as Editor-in-Chief, change everything at the last moment”.

So that was my logic anyway. [laughter]

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FURTHER INFORMATION: As you would have gleaned from reading this Bob is avaliable for commission work. There is a list though and be warned, Bob does take his time, but quality doesn't come rushed. For more information feel free to email Jeff Jawarski - he'll handle it all for you. Make sure youy tell him you saw the interview.

While you're at it you might want to revisit an old interview of mine, with Dave Simons. Dave is another great guy and inked a lot of the classic Ghost Rider material over Bob's pencils.

Monday, September 17, 2007

Boxed Into A Corner: The Quick Reply Part II

Just to clarify things. I received a reply from Tom Brevoort today about why Norm Breyfogle's comments were removed from his blog. Here's part of the reply, "The reason why that comment was deleted is pretty simple: every new post can be marked as "offensive" by anybody who views the post, which deletes it from the live log until somebody with moderator approval can see it and make a determination. If it's deemed inoffensive, it's restored to the comments section. So somebody--not me--who saw those comments since they were first posted flagged them. And given that the entry in question is two months old, I didn't see them until you pointed out that they were missing."

I'm happy to accept that as an answer. Tom has also raised some issues as to why he believes Norm didn't get any follow up work after his Hellcat mini-series, I'm clarifying that with Tom, when the time comes (read: next few days) I'll post some more on this little mini-saga. For now I'll accept that Tom didn't remove the comments, indeed he has re-instated them, and that shows the measure of the man really.

Sunday, September 16, 2007

Boxed Into A Corner: The Quick Reply?

That was quick. Only yesterday did I post my thoughts on Norm Breyfogle asking Tom Brevoort as to why he's not worked at Marvel since the Hellcat mini-series, after this blog entry by Brevoort. I wondered what the reply would be, and thankfully I didn't have to wait long. You can make what you want of this reply - Brevoort simply removed Norm's questions from his blog. That's his prerogative I guess, but it's a weak way out.

There was nothing rude in the comments, no abuse, no foul language. Nothing obscene, nothing disrespectful. About the only thing that anyone could possibly object to is the airing of some slightly soiled laundry, but then I have it on excellent authority that Norm has not once received a reply from Brevoort, in the years since the Hellcat mini-series and it appears he's not about to receive one now. I can only wonder as to why.

Just so Tom doesn't forget what Norm wrote to Tom, here it is in it's entirety:

"Nice of you to take the "blame" for the Hellcat costume change, but that change was definitely my idea, which I originated and pushed for (and you subsequently okayed), and my design was a much better design than the original one. Just compare them side by side, and make your own decision; it's like comparing the classic, original Robin costume to the new versions. Of course, you were the editor, and you okayed my idea, so I guess you must take ultimate responsibility.

"The only reason I can conceive of why some fans might prefer the original comparatively lousy costume design is due to their blind nostalgia for the past.

"Englehart being difficult as the writer of the series was something of which I wasn't aware.

"I have one question, however: if there was no reason to dislike my art (and I think my art on that mini-series was one of my best efforts), why hasn't Marvel shown any interest in hiring me since? I've approached them many times and they've always turned me down."

Any answer Tom Brevoort, other than ignoring the question and hoping it'll go away? I don't know who ultimately removed the questions, if it was Brevoort or someone at Marvel with the thought process of such things are best left in house, but when you consider that Brevoort has used his blog to explain Marvel decisions, both right and wrong, in the past, then surely a simple answer isn't too much to ask? Clearly it is. This is censorship, no matter how you look at it. Norm asks a questions and not only does he not get the decency of an answer, but his questions are removed from the Marvel site, one presumes because they might have the readership discover that there is an active blacklist in place, at both Marvel and DC, of creators who will not work at either company until certain 'creative' staff, mostly in the editorial departments, are gone. Even better these creators don't know their crimes as they're never told, nor is it ever explained. I didn't know that Joe McCarthy had crawled back from the grave to control the comic book industry in the USA.

Pathetic.

Now I'm under no illusions here. I know that none of the editorial staff at either Marvel or DC read this, nor would they take any notice if it were pointed out to them - this stuff would be beneath them. Thus Tom is unlikely to ever see this, or read it. Good on him - why should he? However it'd have been nice if Tom was able to answer Norm's questions - it'd not take that much out of his day and, after all, he does spend a lot of time on his blog answering, in detail, some of the most puerile questions and comments that people post on other sites.

Perhaps if I see Tom in New York I'll ask him myself and see if he turns on heel and walks off in the opposite direction. I suggest other people do the same. Start asking editorial staff, "Why doesn't so-and-so work at your company anymore?" and don't give in until you get a truthful answer, but then truth with these companies is in low demand.

Additional update: Norm left a 'test' message on Brevoort's blog just ysterday. All it said, was, simply, 'This is a test', the idea was to see if it all worked. Guess what? That comment has also been removed, and STILL no explaination.

Monday, August 06, 2007

Looking Back With Larry Lieber

LARRY LIEBER is one of the more overlooked, underrated and as such forgotten men from the Silver Age of Marvel comics. For a while there it appeared that there was nothing that Larry couldn't do - he wrote and he drew, and he did them both solidly and more than competently and remained at Marvel for many years. It can be argued that Larry Lieber wrote more stories for legendary artist Jack Kirby other than Stan Lee and Joe Simon. As a writer Larry scripted the first appearances of both Iron Man (working with Don Heck) and Thor (with Kirby). As an artist he enjoyed a memorable run on Marvel's western title Rawhide Kid, where he provided both stories and art.

Often working in the shadow of his more famous older brother, Stan Lee (born Stanley Lieber), Larry was often the subject of many (unfair) nepotism charges, even after Lee had left the company. Larry landed at Marvel in the late 1950s and remained until 1974, when he was head-hunted by his uncle, the infamous Martin Goodman, to become a writer/artist/editor at the short lived company Atlas (Seaboard). After that venture failed Larry returned to Marvel where he saw out the remainder of his career. A victim of a Jim Shooter purge, Larry has been drawing the Spider-Man daily newspaper strip since the late 1980s, and, health permitting, he'll be drawing that until he finally puts down the pen and retires.
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DANIEL BEST: Where were you born and where did you grow up?
LARRY LIEBER: New York City. Born in New York and grew up in Manhattan but my first years were in the Bronx. Do you know New York at all? I guess not if you’re in Australia.

DB: Only from what I’ve seen.
LL: Well there are boroughs in the City. New York is made up of Manhattan, The Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island. Those are five boroughs and the main one is Manhattan, which I’m sure you know from the movies. But the Bronx is, I don’t know how to describe it, it was a quiet or a little, almost suburban in a way. That’s where I grew up. Actually I was only there until I was about ten and a half and then we moved to Manhattan. Then I grew up in Manhattan in a place called Washington Heights.

My brother, of course you know about my brother right?

DB: Yes.
LL: He’s nine years older than me. So when I was born he was nine years old and we hardly had anything to do with each other. By the time I was nine he was 18 and he went into the Service, it was World War II. He was in the Service for a while, until the end of the War I guess; and as I said, I was in Manhattan for a few years, in my teen years.

DB: What kind of art schooling did you have?
LL: Well it was just public schools there, where everybody went. It was nothing special. As a kid you start about five years old, I did that in the Bronx and then in Manhattan I did the same. I went to Junior High School and then High School. I went to a place called George Washington High School, up in Washington Heights and my brother had gone to De Witt Clinton High School in the Bronx. I would have liked to have gone there but you had to live there to go, so I wasn’t eligible.

When it was time for High School, I tried to get into a High School that specialised in music and art and that’s what it was called, High School of Music and Art, but I didn’t make it. I asked why I didn’t make it and they said, “One of your teachers said you had a poor attendance record,” which was untrue. The one thing I know is I came to school, maybe I wasn’t a good student or something, but I was there. At any rate, I never got into Music & Art and I always regretted it.

DB: And how did you break into the comic book industry?
LL: It was in my family really. My brother was in it and he started when he was about 17 or 18 or whatever. Also my uncle was in it and a cousin of ours owned the company. At that time it was called Timely Comics and he owned it, Martin Goodman. I was just a kid and kids liked comics at that time. We didn’t have television then and so there were newspaper comics and the comic books. I used to like to draw and copy them and so on. I remember once, and I don’t know when it was, but my uncle, Rob Solomon, took me down to Timely Comics. They were in a building called the McGraw Hill Building, later on in the Empire State Building. I actually worked there when I was about 17, but not in the comics; and he took me down there. While I was there I remember meeting Jack Kirby. I was a kid and Jack Kirby drew a picture for me, you know, because it’s a little picture of Captain America and Bucky and it’s signed, “Hi Larry, your pal Captain America and Bucky!” It was signed Jack Kirby and then Joe Simon signed it also. I still have the original drawing here hanging in a frame.

DB: Oh beautiful.
LL: I don’t know how young you are, may I ask?

DB: I’m 38.
LL: Okay, well that’s young from where I sit. I’m 74.

My mother died when I was 16. My brother was back from the Service, he was just married and he moved out outside of New York to Long Island. I lived with him for a while and it didn’t work out so well. I wanted to leave, so I left. I was very young and I had a couple of jobs.

I worked for the New York Times as a messenger when I was 17 and I also worked in a lettering studio in Times Square. I worked for an excellent letterer who did lettering with a brush. His name was Sam Furber and he had done lettering on movies, when you see movies in those days you’d see a title like ‘Beau Geste’ and it was lettered by hand. I don’t know what they called it, show card, whatever the heck it was, but you had to be a very good letterer to do it with a brush. I was in his lettering studio and he wanted to teach me to letter, but I draw with my left hand, even though I do everything else with my right hand and he said you can’t be a left handed letterer, you’ve got to work with your right hand.

I tried and I couldn’t of course, it was very difficult, so I didn’t really letter. I then worked for a company called Magazine Management, which was also owned by Goodman and they put out other books, not comics. They put out movie magazines, what they called men’s magazines like Male Stag and things like that and they put out some pocket books.

Any rate I worked there but I had no skills at all. All I did was paste up. I did so much paste up with rubber cement and I was using the thinners that after a while I found out I had no fingerprints. Along came the Korean War and I joined up. When you join the Service the first thing they want to do is take your fingerprints so they can keep track of you and I had to come back two or three times to the fingerprints, the developer said, “We’re not getting anything”.

So that was my thing there and at the time I was living in Manhattan. I lived in a hotel for about a year and a half that no longer exists. The Hotel Manhattan Towers, it was on Broadway and 76th Street; and then I went into the Service for four years and the first year when I got out of basic. The basic training was at a place that also no longer exists anymore. It was a place called Sampson Air Force Base, up near the Finger Lake area of New York State, Lake Geneva I think it was; and I was there for a year and a half.

When you first come out of basic training they have to give you a job of some sort right? You can’t do basic forever so they ask you what you’d like to do, what you’re suited for and I said, “I don’t know,” and as it turned out I wasn’t suited for anything. I didn’t know enough mathematics to be a technician and I hadn’t gone to college where I could I think be a pilot, you had to have more education and more this. So I said, “Well I know how to draw,” and the guy said, “You can draw?” I said, “Yeah”. So he gives me a piece of pencil and a paper and he says, “Draw me.” So I sketched the man and it must have been good enough. He says, “Alright, you can draw, you’re an artist”.

Unfortunately there was no classification for an artist when you get out of basic. When I got out of basic training I had one stripe on me. In the Army that would have been called a Private First Class, in the Air Force it was an Airman Third Class. So there was no classification for an artist. So the nearest classification they had was a draftsman. So they classified me as a draftsman, which I’m not. A draftsman knows how to make plans for bridges, buildings and things and I don’t know the first thing about it. So I’m classified as a draftsman and they put me in the training aides where they were making up different things. While I was there I made up a little cartoon character. I wasn’t really a cartoonist; I wanted to be a comic artist, like Jack Kirby, doing heroes or something or other, more realistic, not humorous cartoons.

But I happen to make up this little thing, I think it was called Itch and Scratch and it appeared in the Base Newspaper. After it appeared in the Base Newspaper I received a letter or something from a Sergeant in Wright Patterson Air Force Base which is a very big Air Base in Dayton, Ohio. He wrote to me and said, “I’ve seen your work and we’re starting a command wide magazine and we’d like to have you work on it, we think you’re good”. So I was delighted, I thought, “Oh boy that’ll be great”. But it took a little while for him to process the papers to go through and to get me there and in the meantime at Sampson, they got a call from the Far East that they needed a draftsman.

Now the place where I was working in was the training aides. It reminded me of a prison movie a little bit, in that there was a guy in charge, a Sergeant in Charge and the Sergeant had his friends, people he liked and they flattered him a lot. They called him by his initials, and whenever a call came through it was up to the Sergeant to select somebody to go overseas. Well he never selected his friends, he selected the people who were sort of the outsiders and I was one of the outsiders. There was a guy from West Virginia who was an outsider, somebody else who was a tough guy from Brooklyn and a few others and me.

So he picked me and when he told you this, it was so funny, the reason I say it’s like a prison, he had a room where all his friends would sit in the room and he would face them like a school teacher facing a classroom and the people who weren’t his friends were outside the room.

I was called into the room and he told me you have to go and so on and that he picked me. Okay. Well I thought I’m going to go over there, they think I’m a draftsman, I’m not, they’re not going to be happy with that but somebody in Wright Patterson Base knows what I am and wants me, it would be a lot better to go where I can be appropriate, where I could do the work. But I didn’t know what to do. So I went to a place on the base called the Air and Spec you can go there with grievances and problems and so on. So I went there.

Unfortunately the Air Inspector, some Sergeant, I don’t know, he’d been in a long time, had I guess the military type of reasoning. I told him the Sergeant wanted me and the first thing he said was, “Look, I am not interested in any deals entered into between you and a Sergeant out of base”. He said, “You’re classified, you’re going”. I said, “But I’m not a draftsman”. He said, “You’re classified as a draftsman, you’re supposed to be a draftsman”. There was no reasoning with him. I’m supposed to be a draftsman. If I explained why they gave me that, he didn’t want to know that. It was a real military thing. If you’re classified, you’re supposed to learn it quick.

So it was hopeless. So they sent me overseas. I just remember being on a big ship and they sent me to Okinawa. It took about 12 days to get there. The first day I was sea sick, second day sea sick and as soon as I stopped throwing up, they put me on duty for the trip doing KP in the kitchen. So for 12 days I was washing dishes and doing this and doing that. The last day I cut my finger and whoever was in charge took pity on me and said, “Alright, you can take off today”. That was the last day. So that was my lovely trip abroad.

When I got there I had to report in. I reported and I just remember there was one point where I entered a room and somebody “Ah at last, a draftsman is here.” This was when I felt I was in a prison movie like the new guy and I had to tell them, “I’m not a draftsman fella's, I don’t…” and they looked at me. Well they realised it’s not my fault, so they weren’t going to throw me into the sea. “Oh shit we didn’t get…” I don’t know anything about drafting. So they said just kept out of their way.


There was a recreation room and I learned to play a little bit of pool but I had to do something so finally they put me in training aides there too. It gets even better. On the base, or in the Air Force, there are two kinds of officers or there were then. There are officers who fly planes and there are offices that don’t fly planes. Now the officers who fly planes are generally nice guys. They have their airplanes, they fly, they’re proud and all that. The ones who don’t fly planes aren’t always nice because I guess they must feel a little inferior, you know. You’re in the Air Force and you don’t fly, what are you doing? Yeah, compared to the pilots.

So they’re usually the people who want discipline and other things that compensate them. Although I don’t know that many of them. But on our base we had a guy who was a handsome man and a pilot and he had the name to go with it too, Colonel Kincaid; and he was a wonderful guy.

But he had an assistant under him and his name was Colonel Twitty. Colonel Twitty was not a pilot and he believed in military discipline and the morale on Okinawa was very low. At the time it had, I believe, the second highest venereal disease rate in the Air Force or something. In those days it wasn’t so serious because they didn’t have AIDS or anything that they couldn’t cure. Whatever the guys got they gave them penicillin and they got cured. It also had about the lowest reenlistment rate in the Air Force which you can usually tell about the military. You know if people reenlist it’s not bad. So it wasn’t a very great place; and because of that Colonel Twitty decided that we need to bolster the morale. He came up with the idea that everybody should go through basic training again. Now most of these people had been in the Service for a while. It was my second year or third year. See this will give you morale. That’s what we need.

So they had to make up plans for this and all that and I’m still not a draftsman but I made up some signs. I had to work on it, I don’t remember how and they made a training centre and as luck would have it, or irony or poetic justice or whatever, I was one of those working on it and they sent me through, one of the first. So I had to go back into basic training again on this hot and miserable island of Okinawa; and we had two leper colonies off the island there. We had snakes there, poisonous snakes. We slept under mosquito nets for two years because they were afraid of encephalitis.

So it wasn’t a delight. Somebody described it once. They said, “It’s the only place where you can stand with mud up to your knees and have dust blow in your face at the same time.” It never got too cold or too hot but because of the humidity you felt it very much when the weather was kind. But I went through it and then, and this was my triumph in the Air Force, Colonel Twitty decided he wanted an emblem on the base, a new emblem or something and the case headquarters and he wanted an eagle painted. So they come to me and they say “Lieber you’ve got to paint an eagle”.

Now Lieber had been to art school, Pratt Artist Institute, while I was doing my paste ups for Magazine Management, a couple of years, a few years previously. But I never finished my illustration and I never really painted a picture, I never got to it. So Lieber did not know how to paint, and here I was given the assignment, I can’t tell on my cans of paint, I’m not a draftsman but now I’m not an artist.

So I don’t know how the hell I did it, I really don’t. But I must have gotten photographs from Life Magazine of an eagle and he wanted a fierce eagle no less. So I did it very slowly because I didn’t know what I was doing. I don’t remember where I got the paints, some cans of paint or why I stood on the ladder like Michelangelo because there was a big emblem. In the headquarters, I think it was a big shield and it had the number of the squadron, you know, above the shield and this was an eagle above that looking fierce and I must have been on that thing for weeks or months.

Now between me and Colonel Twitty there were some other officers. My immediate officer was a warrant officer, a very nice man called Major Hamilton and he was due to retire. He didn’t want anything to spoil his retirement, the poor guy, and his boss was a major I liked very much, an older man. Anyway this major was his boss and he was a nice guy too, everybody was nice. I guess Twitty in his own way was nice too.

The only problem was I didn’t know what the hell I was doing and it took me a long time, so I kept trying to paint. I swear to you, I don’t remember how I did it, whether I drew it first or must have drawn something looking at a picture; and I was working on it and working on it. Well as time went by, Colonel Twitty was getting impatient and he would let the Major know he was impatient in no uncertain terms and the Major would let the Warrant Officer know and those two guys were sweating a little, understandably and the Warrant Officer said, “Lieber when are you going to get this done? When are we going to have our eagle?” They were all worried and I felt bad for them but I was doing the best I could.

Anyway it took a very long time. I don’t remember whether it was months or weeks or whatever, and Colonel Twitty was going to have apoplexy or something, have a fit. Finally Lieber finished the eagle okay and they were going to have a ceremony. I remember standing in the Headquarters down there, in front of the shield and everything and the Warrant Officer that was there and the Major was there and they’re waiting for Colonel Twitty to arrive, you know; and Colonel Twitty arrived and when he walked in the first thing he did was give me a look, that if looks could kill I would have dropped dead on the spot. Like you son of a bitch, you’re making me wait.

But then he looked at the thing and he looked up and when he looked up, he looked up pass the shield and the number of the squad and he saw the eagle. Suddenly his face broke into a smile and he said, “This was worth waiting for”; and that was my triumph in the Service. The Warrant Officer breathed a sigh of relief, as did the Major and I and they took my picture. We had a base newspaper and my picture appeared in the newspaper, okay and oh boy was I relieved and happy and other people talk about they were heroes, they were this, this was my triumph.

I was in the service for four years. The first year was at Sampson, two years on Okinawa and then they said, “We’re sending you back to the States for your fourth year, where would you like to be, what section?” So they gave us sections of choices. So the first section I picked was the East Coast with New York City and they said, “What’s your second choice?” I said, “My second choice is California”. I thought that would be nice, Hollywood, something I could look at. So they sent me to Del Rio Texas, my choice. Del Rio Texas is a little town and the base was near the Rio Grande River. It’s nothing that anybody would really want to go to and it reminded me of Okinawa, it was the same thing. Okinawa when you looked out, all you saw was water and here when you looked out, all you saw was sand.

So that was it. I always kept that newspaper and years later when I was married they decided to have a Korean Reunion and they had it in West Virginia, I forget where it is. Virginia Beach I think it was; and I went with my wife, my late wife, and before I went I wanted to find that newspaper, I don’t think I had ever shown it to her. I looked all over my apartment, there are bundles, there’s this, and I never found it. So I couldn’t take it with me but I could tell people the story but they were telling more interesting stories to guys who were in combat and in Korea and you know, all the battles. So that’s my war experience.

DB: It sounds like the plot of Catch 22 or something like that.
LL: Yeah, it could be a comedy. I’ll give you another thing. Somebody wrote a play called the Tea House of the August Moon, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that?

DB: It rings a bell on me for some reason.
LL: There was a tea house on Okinawa, previously during World War II or just after. Anyway while I was there, somebody wrote the play in the United States and it was showing so because of that they went and opened another tea house to copy the play. Anyway that was a comedy with Marlon Brando and you could see it sometime with Glen Ford. It was called the Tea House of the August Moon. So that’s that. Now what else. You ask a question so I can relax a second.

DB: When you got out of the Services you went straight into working at Marvel?
LL: Well not quite, a couple of years later. I went to art school for a while. I still wanted to be an illustrator but I didn’t go back to Pratt, instead I went to the Art Students League. I wanted to study and I ended up actually studying with a famous teacher there but I had to leave in the middle of it and again I never finished painting, I never learnt to paint.

He had a thing when you paint a picture, I think it was ten steps, I was up to step three when I had to quit. So I still can’t paint a picture and years later when I joined the Society of Illustrators because they lowered their standards and let me in as a comic artist. I used to be embarrassed. I’d go there and I’d say I’m not a painter, I’m not an illustrator, but it turned out that I was like a star because it’s almost like a dark haired girl going to Scandinavia, she stands out you know, or a blonde in South America. So I stood out, “Oh you did Spider-Man”? But I never became the illustrator.

But I started working and I forget exactly what, it was in 1958. I wasn’t fast enough or good enough to draw comics, although that was what I wanted to do, so my brother offered me a chance to write.

In the art school at that time, they didn’t teach you how to draw without a model. All the drawing when you learn anatomy they have models there. So with a model what you do is, you develop your eye, you get a very good eye and most artists use models. Illustrators do it, certainly the fine artists didn’t just make it up, they draw with models. In comics it’s the one field you don’t use models. You’re not getting paid enough and you’ve got to grind out picture after picture and be able to construct the figure and do it so that I never really learned. You know I wasn’t that good at it.


DB: I’ve always wondered what training you had when you started writing.
LL: Oh okay. My brother said he had no writer but himself. He was the only one. He said, “I can use you, you can help me, you can write”. I said, “Stan I’m not a writer”. He said, “Oh I’ve read your letters from the Service, you can write. I’ll show you, you can do it”. So he taught me and that was an interesting experience for about I don’t know how many years, I guess a few years. Let’s say 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962. Yeah for a few years I was writing.
At first they were, the stories were these, what were these monster stories and you know the books?

DB: Journey into Mystery…
LL: Yes, that’s it. Journey into Mystery.

DB: Tales To Astonish, Tales Of Suspense…
LL: Yeah, those books right. They were five page stories or seven page stories, he would make up the plot then he would give it to me and I would write it. At the time I was living in a place called Tudor City, in a furnished room. I would write and I wrote stories for Jack Kirby who was so fast; he was drawing faster than I could write. I had to keep feeding him stories; he needed them to earn a living. I think he was living in New Jersey at the time and I’d go to the post office on Saturday night and send the stuff there. I did that for a few years; and then they started making up the Super Heroes and I wrote a few of the first, Ant Man and Iron Man and Thor.

Stan again made up the plots, but I made up the civilian names for a few of them that I create. Let’s see, the Ant Man was Henry Pym. I made up the name Henry Pym and Don Blake I made up for Thor and Tony Stark I made up, you know. But the important names, such as Ant Man, Thor and Iron Man, Stan made up.

So that was what I did. I must have drawn a little and then when they started doing the superheroes, he needed other people to draw them. It was more work and he was going to hire artists and I don’t know how good I would have been as an Editor compared to others, so I never even tried. I sort of melted into the background. I didn’t want to write that kind of stuff all that much. I didn’t want to get involved; and what they did was Jack Kirby had been doing a Western and Western’s weren’t selling that well, it didn’t matter what you did with them as long as they sold a certain amount.

Anyway he of course was used on the superheroes which were important. He was so wonderful at that.

When Jack gave up one of the Westerns, the Rawhide Kid, they gave it to me. Stan gave it to me and it didn’t matter much, so I was really on my own. I wrote and drew it and I enjoyed that. I’ve always enjoyed it when I write the stuff and draw it myself and I did that for seven years.

I liked it. However it wasn’t that popular a thing because everybody was interested in all the superheroes. Occasionally I’d meet somebody who said, “You know I read that one, I really liked it”. So I enjoyed that and after that I did covers for a while, superhero covers. In the meantime I did some other things. There was one point where I was doing romance comics. I was writing and they were actually pretty good; and then there were periods where I had difficulty getting work and Martin Goodman went into difficulty. I’ll just put this in and I don’t want to elaborate on this, but many of the artists and writers could go from National comics from DC to Marvel, go back, one and another, and if they weren’t happy at one company they’d go to another. If they wanted more money they could go. I was the only one who could never do that because that was the price for Stan being my brother. So I could never do that.

As a matter of fact, once I didn’t have any work and I sent work to DC and a friend of mine brought it over, Frank Giacoia. He came back and he said, “Well it’s alright, but they’d have no need for it now,” so I didn’t get the work. Some time later, I was in a restaurant where some of the artists in Manhattan used to go to and I happened to be sitting with Carmine Infantino who was the art director of DC. We had met a few times before, we were friendly and I brought this up to him. I said, “You know I sent over that work and I never heard”, and he looked at me with surprise and he said, “Do you mean that was on the level?” I said, “Yes, yes, I needed work”. He hadn’t replied because they were very suspicious. They would have thought Stan Lee is sending over a spy or something you know. I would see what they’re doing and go back or whatever the hell it was. So I couldn’t do that, I couldn’t work.

So at any rate Martin Goodman started his company, Seaboard and Atlas. I knew colour comics and he was putting out colour comics and he was putting out black and white books, like Warren Publications. He picked me to do the black and white books and he picked the guy from Warren to do the colour comics, don’t ask me why. It didn’t work out and the guy ended up getting all the books except a couple and then that didn’t work out. The guy left and then I had to do all the things. It was an experience that was not too pleasant and I don’t, I don’t like to talk about it.

But when that was over, I don’t know, maybe it was only a year and a half or something or a year, I don’t know how long Seaboard was around, about a year. Then I came back from Marvel and they offered me a job in the British Department. The British Department was the Department where they did reprints of the books and they sent them to Great Britain and so I had very little original to do. Actually we did make up one original story there which was Captain Britain. John Buscema drew it and it was a delight to work with him, somebody else wrote it and I worked on covers. So I was in the British Department for a while; then that ended, they closed the Department. Stan started Spider-Man in the newspapers. He was writing it, Romita was drawing it and then they decided he wanted The Hulk. Let’s try that. The Hulk was kind of popular on television; and so I drew The Hulk. Stan was writing it and after a while The Hulk wasn’t doing well and I don’t know exactly why, but it wasn’t and Stan decided to give it up, or give up his part. He said, “Larry if you want, you can write The Hulk and draw it”. So once again I was writing and drawing and that I enjoyed even more than the Rawhide Kid.

I made up stories that I really liked and it lasted a little while. After that, after the Hulk, Stan left. I think he went out to Hollywood or out to California and that’s when Jim Shooter came in and took over. I didn’t have any steady work then. I did a few inventory stories or different things, until finally they needed somebody, an artist, on Spider-Man on the strip which Fred Kida had been doing until he retired. They tried somebody else and it didn’t work out and they offered it to me and I started doing it and I’ve been doing it for 20 years now it’ll be.

DB: It’s a long run.
LL: Yeah. For a while after about the first or second year, I inked it myself but it was very hard in terms of time. I’d sit up all night inking it. We were in this one room apartment studio and I’d be inking all night and one day and then I’d rush down to King Features and deliver it. One day I just delivered it to King Features and I left and I tried to think of something and I couldn’t think of the numbers, or remember dates or something and I got a little nervous and I said, “Maybe I can’t take this sitting up all night, a whole night anymore. I’m not that young”.

So I gave up the inking. I said, “If I ever get fast I’ll do it again,” but I never went back to it and that’s it, that’s my story.

DB: The Hulk newspaper strip; I remember reading that when it came out at the time and I always thought that the work you were doing there was more interesting than the comic book in a lot of ways.
LL: Oh you mean the stories? Well thank you, yeah.
I liked doing it. When I was writing, before the superheroes, Stan was teaching me to write. Now he had never taught anybody else to write so he didn’t know how well somebody learns or doesn’t learn or, he didn’t know how to compare me to anybody else. All he knew was I didn’t write as well as he did.

He wasn’t always the most patient person and I had problems with the dialogue and he said, “Why did you say that? You could have said it this way, or this way or that way,” and I’m realising yeah, I don’t think of it that way or this way.

So at any rate finally I think at one point he got a little exasperated and he said, “Look,” he said, “I’m going to hire some of the old pros.” He remembered writers from the past. So anyway he must have for a while. He still gave me work, he didn’t want to take work away but they were putting out a few more books.

So he hired somebody and then the next week when I came back to him he said, “I don’t know.” He said, “Larry, you know something, you’re no good, but you’re better than these other guys”. So that was my first victory if you want to call that a victory right. The others are worse than me.

My second victory came years later when I was doing the Hulk, newspapers, when I was writing it and he said to me one day, he said, “Larry,” he said, “I look at the Hulk, and it’s very good. Also I think it’s even more dramatic than Spider-Man”. So when he said that to me that he liked it and thought that in a certain way more dramatic. I felt good about that. So that was my second victory.
Unfortunately the strip failed, it isn’t around but Spider-Man still is. So those were my experiences in comics.

DB: Now for a writer who thought he couldn’t really write, you probably wrote more stories for Jack Kirby than anyone else outside of Stan and probably Joe Simon.
LL: Did I? Amazing. You would know better than I. I did write them for a few years.

Kirby was in every book. I remember some of the stories were for Don Heck and the only ones that I never wrote, because Stan liked writing them himself, are the ones for Steve Ditko. At the back of each book I think, there was a story for Ditko and that was Stan’s own story.

I did learn to write and I learned a lot from Stan. Some years later he and John Buscema had a course, an artist course teaching drawing to some people. They used work out of a hotel and I don’t know how long it lasted, maybe a couple of years. When they were about to end it or before they ended it, they decided they’d like to put writing into, teach people to write and they asked me if I wanted to teach it. I remember I went there, down to this hotel, and for one semester I guess you’d call it or something, I was teaching about six or seven people about comics and in order to teach them, I’ve never thought about it, I had to make up some kind of curriculum or something. I remember I had a whole bunch of index cards. What a comic should be, what it shouldn’t be, I’d Xeroxed some papers to show, to explain this and that, and it must have been pretty good.

I went down and when it was over, they gave me a book with a lot of appreciation saying how patient I was and how much they learned and so on.

DB: When you were writing back in the day of Marvel, did you write with a particular artist in mind, such as Kirby?
LL: No, I wasn’t thinking of Jack when I did it. It could have been Jack or Don Heck or anybody. The only one I was concerned about was Stan because I had to show it to him. I was only hoping Stan would like it but Jack would do what he wants; I didn’t care about what he did afterwards. You know I just wanted to put something down that Stan would say, “Hey, this is okay. Hey this pretty good, that reads nice”. You know, “that’s okay”. I remember he praised the names I made up, places and people. You know my famous story which I told so many about Thor’s hammer?

DB: No, I don’t think I’ve heard that one.
LL: You don’t know that one? When Stan made up Thor and he gave him to me and said, “This guy has got a hammer and swings it around”. I guess the hammer I felt it had to have a name. Maybe Stan said it, I don’t remember. I just know because, there’s going to be a name, I said, “What the hell kind of a name I’ll give to the hammer”, so it just came to me.

I used to look at it in the back of the dictionary, Miriam Webster’s they have geographical places and they have biographical names and a lot I would take from that according to what the character was, what a person was and that’s where I must have gotten Henry Pym or I got the name Pym from an English scientist. It sounds like an English scientist; and so somehow I made up the name and I wanted it to be short, I’m always thinking of the lettering. I also think of other people, I don’t want to put a burden on the inker, on the letterer, so I said, “Uru”. I made up the name Uru, U-R-U.

The Uru hammer, I said, “That sounds exciting”. I don’t know what the hell; it’s just a name. So I made that thing up and after a couple of issues, Roy Thomas, who was the editor of the books, came in and one day I’m in the office, I don’t know what I was doing and Roy came over to me and he comes over with this big book, “Bullfinches Mythology”. I never read the book. Roy comes over to me and he says, “Larry, where in here did you find the Uru hammer”. I said, “Roy I didn’t find it in there, I made it up,” and he looked aghast that I’d made it up because he had been a schoolteacher, an English teacher. He left and the next thing I know, he found the real name for it which is Mjölnir or something according to the Norse legends, so it became Mjölnir instead of Uru which was made up by Larry Lieber.

Well a couple years ago, a couple years ago they invited me out to the San Diego convention, which I think is the largest convention. I don’t usually go to conventions, I had never been there before but they invited me as a guest and I was on a panel. I’m on the panel and there were people in the audience and I forget who else was there, there were a couple of men and there was a very talented writer and there was a woman on there from DC I think. Anyway I can’t see the other people on the panel and somebody in the audience asks me about it, everybody wants the story so I told the story of the Uru hammer and I said I made it up and then Roy Thomas put the real name in, this and that and I hear a voice, a woman’s voice say, “You made that up?” and I said, “Yeah”. She says, “Well don’t you know what that means?” I said, “No, I don’t know what it means”, and it turns out that it was a woman on the panel and she says, “In the Norse language or something that means power, strength”.

In other words, it had an appropriate meaning which I had no idea, I just made up a word. So I thought that was kind of cute. Here I make up something which Roy changed immediately. But that’s my claim to fame and fortune that I made up a name and it turned out to be an appropriate name, according to this woman.

DB: Getting back to the writing aspect and the artists. Were they Marvel-style or full scripts that you presented to artists like Kirby and Heck?
LL: They were full scripts and I didn’t think of Jack when I wrote it at all. All I thought of was will Stan like this or will he tell me, “Larry this isn’t good, you can’t do this”. I didn’t want to hear something like that.

DB: Now when you were working at Marvel at that stage, were you working at home or actually in the offices?
LL: When I was writing this stuff I did it all at home. I would go into the office and Stan would give me a synopsis, this is what I want and I would take it home and write. When I started, I lived in this place, this little furnished room, this place in Manhattan called Tudor City. There’s a little park there, near the United Nations area, and I remember sitting there with a pad and some yellow paper or something and because I was trained as an artist and I thought visually, especially with a comic.

I would lay it out at first in, little boxes, like I was doing little story boards for myself; and I’d say, “Alright panel one, I’ll do this or I’ll do that” and then write it. I’d sit out in the park when the weather was nice and do it; and then I’d go into my room, I had a furnished room, one little room.

I remember there was an elderly woman owned the apartment and the windows were not normal windows that opened up and down, go up and down but they were little French windows that opened out, so you could not put in an air-conditioner. So it got pretty hot in the city there then and I had a Vornado fan that saved my life, I kept it on all the time; and I was at the typewriter, typing with two fingers and learning to write.

DB: On the job training.
LL: Yeah it was, it really was and I learned a lot I think. My two favourite writers were Rod Sirling and Sterling Silliphant and they were writing for television. I used to hear their stuff. I love good dialogue and tried to write and think about it. That’s how I did it, I’d have to send out a full script, it was always a full script.

I think the Marvel style came when Stan was doing the superheroes and he had so much to write. Also he was working with a guy like Jack. He knew the characters and could come up with different gimmicks perhaps; things in the stories so. I don’t know who started that, but I never worked with it that way at all.

DB: So even after the superhero thing started and you were working at Marvel in the late 1960’s and the 1970’s, you never worked the Marvel style, everything was full script for you?
LL: As far as I know, yes. Now I could be wrong, my memory isn’t the best and so you may be able to find somebody who says “He did write Marvel style,” but as far as I know, I don’t recall ever writing that way. Not that I know of. When I wrote, every time, it was a script.

Except when I was writing for myself, like when I did the Hulk, but I’m not even sure then. I didn’t have to type it all out when I did the Hulk. I don’t know how I did it but I knew I was going to draw it and if I’m drawing and writing it I could put it together.

But I really don’t, now that you mention it, I don’t even recall how I did it myself. But whenever it was anybody else, I don’t remember ever telling somebody here’s the story, go ahead and then I had to fit in dialogue. I don’t remember that process. Stan was very good at it. He could look at the picture and decide what the dialogue should be and sometimes he’d look and he’d say, “Here’s a little area that could use something”. Oh he did it so easily and smoothly.

You know, “Here’s a little area that could use something,” and he’d put a little gem in there in those days and just write to fit the story, to fit the drawing. I never did that as far as I know.

DB: When you’d go up to the offices, who were some of the people
that were hanging around at the times?
LL: Well it depends when. In the early years when I started writing before the superheroes, I was the only one he had. As a matter of fact, it was almost like something out of the movie Citizen Kane.

When I started working for Stan doing those little stories he was in an office that was as big as nothing, like somebody’s little alcove almost. It had a window there and I don’t know if anybody was there with him. I don’t know if he had Sol Brodsky at the time or who the other people were. I just remember going up and there might have been somebody sitting there doing a little colouring. It was a narrow little nothing of a few feet and he was making all his own lettering corrections; and we were on the second floor of a building on Madison Avenue and 60 of looking down into the street.

Now the years pass and then came the superheroes, then came this, the company was sold to Perfect Films and Cadence Industries and Ronald Perlman. One day years later they have a party or something to celebrate; this was before business got bad. It was downtown in Manhattan and I got an invitation. So I go down there and it was being held in I guess a discotheque or a nightclub, and I walk in there and I see a load of people and I see people coming down a staircase dressed like comic characters and I look over and I think I see Stan over there talking to Perlman and others and businessmen and artists and I think to myself, like this feels like Citizen Kane to me. You know that movie?

DB: Yes when they start up the newspaper it’s with just Kane and his assistant, the two people and then…
LL: Exactly. Yeah or where he came from and he had the sled as a child. Well that’s what I felt that this was. It started as nothing and I thought, “Oh my God, look what this has become?” Because I didn’t go down to the office often or anything there. All those years I just thought Stan and I were just about the only two. I think he had Brodsky doing it and then later he got, as it went on, he got some more people, secretaries, a big space. But that was the beginning. Later on I knew the artists when Jack Kirby would come up; when John Buscema, the first time I met him. He was the most amazing artist. I couldn’t believe that anybody could be that good. The first time I met him I remember shaking hands with him and he had a grip, I thought he’d crush my fingers. He didn’t look very much like an artist; he looked more like the Head of the Long Shoreman’s Union or something. You know he was a weightlifter but he could draw the most beautiful and sensitive. I told him one day, I said “I know your secret. You’ve sold your soul to the devil,” I said, “because nobody draws that well that hasn’t”. He was what I’d call the best drawer, maybe not the best artist, but the best drawer I ever saw.
Though I knew him I never saw much of Kirby. But occasionally he’d come up but I knew him through his work and I loved his work very much; and then I saw the others there.

Gil Kane sometimes came up, as did Don Heck. When I worked with the staff, and there was a big staff there of people who, I don’t know, they’re retired, they’re gone. There was a wonderful inker who was I guess my closest friend. His name was Frank Giacoia. He was wonderful and he was a very human guy. He and I had a similar problem, we were always late with our work, slow and behind, and he really suffered; but he was a wonderful human being; and that’s all. That’s was it.

I knew some others there of course. In the 1960’s it was a very relaxed atmosphere. So anybody could come in and they’d talk and they walked around and so on and so forth. Later on it changed very much because people were different and I don’t know. This is when Cadance had it and they moved some place else and they had to watch things, people would steal things. They’d come in and steal whatever the hell they could so before I could get in I had to be announced, I had to this, or wait out in the waiting room for somebody to come and see you. It changed completely. But in those early days, it was the most relaxed place you could think of and it was very nice, it was very nice.

I don’t look back on the days with fondness because I barely got a living and I wasn’t the artist that I wanted to be and they just were not happy days for me at all. But that’s what it was. They were there and I do remember there were some nice, nice people and good artwork and a relaxed atmosphere.

I think most of the other people would tell you happier stories than I, because I think most of them were earning more of a living and as I said, they could go from company to company and they did this and that. For me it wasn’t so great.
But I did have friends there. For a lot of the time I was living alone. I wasn’t married and I didn’t go out much. Then later on I did meet a woman, we got married and unfortunately there was a great deal of illness on her part. We had a marriage but she’s gone now and so I sit here alone in the room and I try to go out and do things but I’m glad I have Spider-Man and in an odd way I try to think ahead of what I’d like to do, what I’d still like to do. I seldom look back on those days with any great nostalgia, because I guess I was a lonely person and I didn’t want to be that way.

I used to say as a matter of fact, I wish I had gone to College and there were times I would have wanted to leave and just get a job, but I never went to College. So often over the years if I meet a young artist who says, “How do I, what do I draw, what do I do?” I say, “Look whatever you do, go to College, get an education so if you ever decide you don’t want to do this, you could do something else. Don’t just depend on comics.” Also, I’ll tell you one other thing which is kind of ironic. When I started writing those comics, The Journey into Mystery type, I asked Martin Goodman, “How would you describe this industry? Because now I’m starting to write this stuff,” and at the time he said, “I’d call it a dying industry,” and it probably was; and so I didn’t how long I would be around. Well the industry not only didn’t die, but you know what happened and it was because of Stan I think. Stan was really made for comics. He and Jack Kirby. I have always felt that he was the essential comic artist. Stan was the essential comic writer and Jack was the essential comic artist; and by that they didn’t put in anything more than a comic in their work and they didn’t put anything less than the best comic.

DB: Makes sense. I’ve always thought that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby as a team were far better…
LL: Oh I thought they were the best.

DB: …than what they were on their own.
LL: Yes, yes, because Kirby could add stuff to Stan’s, that’s why Stan could do it. Jack needed Stan I think. There used to be friction between them and he left. He went over to DC and when he went there he put out I don’t know ten books or something or other, eleven, whatever it was, and almost all but one failed, they didn’t make money.

Then he came back to Marvel later. But when he was with Stan certainly they made money.

DB: There was a period there where everything they did was just pure gold.
LL: Yes, yes. Jack was a very good storyteller and he knew how to do it. Stan certainly flourished and he developed this whole style of writing that was very individual where he would talk to the writer. It was very much his personality and if I happened to come across once in a while an old comic, you know he didn’t do that. I don’t think he did it in the books that I was doing, Journey into Mystery, I don’t think he had enough to do it to work. But when he started with the older superheroes, each one had their own personality like Spider-Man and the dialogue was very individual and came very easily to him. So I think he was perfect for it.
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Many thanks to Will Murray for making this interview possible - you're one of the best Will!

Thursday, May 31, 2007

Alan Kupperberg Looks Back: THE AVENGERS

They were Earth's Mightest Heroes! They might not have been the first, the Fantastic Four came before them, but they were the premier team of the Marvel Universe. Originally created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and boasting the artistic talents of Kirby and Dick Ayers, they had the big hitters on the side from the first issue with The Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, Giant Man and the Wasp. They quickly dropped the unstable Hulk and gained the living legend himself, Captain America. From there it was all downhill.

The Avengers have, until recently, been one of the flagship books of the Marvel Universe. The line-up has boasted virtually any and every major character the company has and as a rule Marvel have generally put their top talents onto the book. Artists and writers who have worked on the book include Kirby, Don Heck, John Romita, George Perez, John Byrne, Barry Windsor-Smith, Neal Adams, Roy Thomas, Jim Mooney, John Buscema, Sal Buscema, Joe Sinnott, Jim Starlin, Rich Buckler, Steve Engelhart, Alan Weiss, Don Perlin, Wally Wood, Frank Giacoia, Mike Esposito, Harlan Ellison, Herb Trimpe, Bob Brown, George Tuska, Mike Ploog, Tom Sutton, Gerry Conway, Tony Isabella. Roger Stern and more - a virtual Who's Who of Marvel. The much maligned Jim Shooter had two good runs on the title, the first coming in the late 1970s with the likes of George Perez (the fondly remembered 'Korvac Saga') and again in the early 1980s when he worked with Gene Colan, Alan Kupperberg, Bob Hall and others to create one of the more controversial storylines of the day, dealing as it did with a situation of domestic violence resulting in the marriage breakdown between the Wasp and Yellowjacket. Sadly the book has lost it's appeal in recent times with there being multiple teams of Avengers in the aftermath of the recent events of Marvel's Civil War.

Alan Kupperberg came on board to draw three issues of The Avengers in 1981. It's fair to say that out of the three issues he drew one exceptional issue, one below-par issue and one above average issue. Alan himself will give the reasons as to why it breaks down that way as he opens up in another frank and brutally honest look back at his past work.
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ALAN KUPPERBERG: ‘And The Craw Shall Inherit The Earth!’ [laughter] (issue #205) You know when I drew this story I don’t ever remember even thinking about “The Craw” from Get Smart. When I did the What If? story, I couldn’t get that out of my head. And on this story, I didn’t have it on my mind. Which is strange, because I’m generally compulsive that way.
DANIEL BEST: Who drew the cover to your first issue?
AK: I drew the cover. I like it.
DB: It looks very different.
AK: Different from me or different for an ordinary cover?
DB: It’s a strong cover and, and I’m not sure how to say this, it doesn’t look like your artwork.
AK: Do you think it’s good?
DB: I think it’s great.
AK: Ah, so that’s why it doesn’t look like my artwork! [laughter]
DB: Noooo. Ahhh that ain’t fair! [laughter]
AK: Gotcha! No, seriously, I don’t recognise it as mine either. I agree with you. But I drew the cover. I drew it and Dan Green inked it. At the time, I thought the inks were incredibly ham-handed, especially on the inside of the book. I was disappointed in the inks, because I felt, at the time, that this issue was sort of a breakthrough for me, regarding my pencils. Everyone seemed very happy when they saw the pencils. I think that Jim Shooter was a little bit leery when Jim Salicrup first gave me the assignment. And when they saw the pencils they seemed very, very happy. The splash page is very nice. I believe the pencils were a lot more nuanced than the finished product reflect. But, as usual, many years after the fact, I have fewer problems with the inks than I originally had.
DB: When you came onto the book you were following people like George Perez, John Byrne, Carmine Infantino had done a few issues…
AK: So how could I look good in a situation like that?
DB: Don Newton…it must have been a prestigious gig.
AK: Yeah, one of Marvel’s original ten big books. But again, how were people going to be satisfied by my art following, as it did, that of George Perez?
DB: You’re not George Perez.
AK: You are right, sir!
DB: You weren’t daunted following those artists?
AK: Well, you’re almost always going to follow somebody. Get out of the business if you can’t take it. I don’t think I gave it much of a thought back then.
DB: How can you win? You do a damn good comic book, which you did.
AK: Thank you.
DB: There’s not much, if anything, that I can find wrong with this issue.
AK: Again, I just don’t think I’m going to be anybody’s favourite. There may be two guys. Just by the law of averages. And I’m their favourite artist. That’s fine. But by not being the fans favourite, you’re not going to make a large portion of the vocal readership happy. Not people who care about this stuff. A reader of comic books, just a reader, not a fan, collector or connoisseur, shouldn’t be bothered by my stuff. But the fans. What did the business become in that decade, the ‘80s, but merely a haven for fans. I don’t have any fans. But if comics were still a mass media, that wouldn’t make a difference. But by catering to the fans and the fan market, the comic book shops, that has helped take a mass medium and turned it into an over-priced, over-produced, niche market. Comic books are now nothing but another Hollywood farm system.
DB: I think you do have fans, I think every artist has their fans.
AK: Sure, or I wouldn’t receive commission work.
DB: Or no-one would bother interviewing you, let alone read what you put out there. You do have fans, it’s just that they’re not as vocal…
AK: …or rabid as others. You can like my stuff and think it’s okay. I can appreciate that. You can have affection for it, but to get wild about it? In a sense, I do understand, of course. I’m a performer, albeit on paper. Any performer will have people who care, who follow their work. It’s a natural, human thing. My work is out there and my work is part of the popular, mass culture. Therefore I understand the interest in my participation. I’m part of this thing, so naturally I will get attention because I’m part of the history, like it or not. I’m glad you liked it. Very gratified.
DB: I do. Sure, you’re following Don Newton and Newton was always a favourite of mine because I’d been exposed to his work on the Phantom and Batman, so I’d seen that before I saw this. I’ll say this though, and I’m sure you’ll correct me, I prefer this issue over the Carmine Infantino stuff, I felt that Carmine was all wrong for this book.
AK: Carmine has his own style and it doesn’t say ‘Marvel’.
DB: I couldn’t stand Carmine Infantino on The Avengers.
AK: I don’t think I’d have liked that. I vaguely remember it. As usual, if Frank Giacoia had inked my pencils, it’d have looked tremendous. And the printing is not that good either. The black plate is very weak. On all these issues.
DB: The Yellow Claw in this issue is vastly different to the Yellow Claw you drew in the What If?
AK: Right.
DB: Your Iron Man in this issue is probably the best Iron Man you did.
AK: I notice that I point out figures that I really like and they are frequently figures of Iron Man. There’s something about the construction of the character’s outfit that seems to lend itself to my artistic talents. My drawings of The Claw are pretty good in this issue. That was amongst the things that people really liked. The Claw has a real “character” face. Superhero faces can be boring. They’re generally white bread. Vanilla. So the villains are the place where you can do interesting character drawing. The Iron Man figure on the bottom of page 12 is really nice.
DB: Being driven into the ground head first. Your Claw figure on the top of page 13, in fact all of them, were you looking at any reference at the time or did it just come from you?
AK: No, that all came out of my own pencil. I agree with you, that’s a very nice face. I sort of got what I wanted on the Vision in the next panel.
DB: It’s a great counterpoint. What I like about your Vision is that you never show his eyes. By this stage a lot of people had been drawing him with eyes but you kept his sockets shaded.
AK: And I still managed to get my point across, expression wise.
DB: Expression wise it adds to the story because the whole story centres on the Vision being in a very dark mood and very angry. What makes him more angry and dark then not being able to see his eyes?
AK: His eyes were hidden by a cast shadow.
DB: There were other artists who’d draw the actual eyes or at least strongly hint them but you blacked it out.
AK: Every artist has his own version.
DB: The Claw on page 15.
AK: It’s very nice. And once again that’s all mine.
DB: I’m not surprised that people liked the pages when they came in.
AK: I did catch a little flak on that Goddamn flying machine, the Flying Claw, when the “fingers” were to attach to it, later on in the story.
DB: That doesn’t look right for some reason.
AK: Page 19?
DB: Page 19, page 20, the whole thing.
AK: Oh, you don’t like the concept of the Flying Claw?
DB: Yeah.
AK: I think Shooter was unhappy with the way I drew the fingers. Perhaps it was Salicrup. Though it’d be more likely Shooter to complain. I didn’t draw the perspective correctly on it. I had to take it back home and fix it. Shooter said, “No, the fingers don’t line up in perspective. Make sure they do.” I would get lazy on stuff like that.
DB: Shooter did that a lot. I know he used to send Gene Colan’s art back all the time with corrections on every page. In fact that’s the main reason why Colan left Marvel.
AK: In my case he wasn’t wrong. I should have drawn them correctly. It’s not difficult. I knew how to do it; I just didn’t draw them correctly.

DB: With Colan he’d make corrections on every page and then send the lot back.
AK: Well, he didn’t do that with me. This was one of the rare instances where I was asked to fix something. I wasn’t asked to make a change, I was asked to fix something. That’s different. Just changes, well, that didn’t happen often. I’ve been known to argue with editors. If I thought they were just being arbitrary and just reacting to their own taste, I could argue. If I felt what I did was legitimate and worked on it’s own level, then I would argue against making a change. But it didn’t happen often.
DB: So why weren’t you given this book on a regular basis? After this issue Gene Colan took over.
AK: Gene Colan took over from me??
DB: Yeah. Colan took over and pencilled the book all the way through until issue #211, skipping the one issue you drew as a fill in.
AK: He’s a bigger name than me, so why not go for him if you can get him. But I don’t really know. The editors are not obliged to account for their assignments to other freelancers. This was just a fill in issue for me. I was asked if I’d be available to draw an issue.
DB: Did you ever ask for the book?
AK: I don’t recall if I ever specifically asked to have this one or not. Periodically I’d go into an editor’s office and say, “Do you have any books that don’t have an artist?” But I couldn’t say, “Throw someone off a book and give it to me.”
DB: Colan did the next few issues and then you did another.
AK: Right. I think they used me when they needed me. I’m sure, in some ways, that having me draw an issue was easier and more reliable than having Carmine do it, for instance. Because I know who these guys are. Does Carmine?
DB: Probably not. Your next issue, #209, doesn’t work as well as your first issue.
AK: Again, I thought the pencils were much better than the inks. Especially page one. I worked really hard on it in a way that just does not come across in the inks at all. This was a rare issue, probably the only time, that I had serious issues with the story. I was really offended by what took place and when we get to it I’ll tell you what it was.
DB: To me it almost read like a Defenders story.
AK: Maybe it’s because of the Beast. It’s a nice establishing shot of the Avengers mansion on page three. Page two had so much more subtlety in it with my pencils, but here it looks like a bit of a mish-mash. The colouring doesn’t help either.
DB: The title looks like it was added in at the last second as well. It looks off-centre to me.
AK: And it’s not well lettered, either. I don’t know what became of Janice Chang. She lettered a lot of my stuff around that time. It is not great lettering. As I recall, she was very quiet and I don’t recall much interaction with her. Come to think of it I can’t even remember who colorist Ben Sean is. It might even be a pseudonym, for all I know.
DB: The whole thing of a Skrull impersonating Jarvis…it just left me flat.
AK: There were several reasons that caused me to have less fun on this issue than on many other books that I drew. I thought the civilian stuff that takes place in Avengers mansion was much better in the pencil than in inked form.
DB: Ironically enough your Vision and Scarlet Witch are great.
AK: I always liked her costume [chuckles] and that always helped inspire me. I love that weird Kirby headpiece.
DB: So what was it about this issue that didn’t grab you?
AK: First of all, I’m not that crazy about drawing period stuff. You have to do research. The 1940s are okay. But beyond that, my interest in drawing that stuff flags severely. Pirate drama doesn’t interest me. Medieval stuff doesn’t interest me at all. I’m not into cowboys. The 20th century is my meat.
DB: I’m guessing that it’s Chapter Three in this book that upset you the most?
AK: Yes, of course. I don’t know what it was that bothered me except maybe it’s my religion.
DB: I found the bottom panel on page 19 to be a bit out of order.
AK: Me too. I argued strenuously for finding another way. I told them I didn’t like it, I didn’t think it was proper; I didn’t think it was nice. And the editor and the writer listened very politely and then they went right ahead and did what they wanted to do. I didn’t fixate upon it. I tried to draw it as realistically as possible and as well as I could. It was ghastly, and I tried to make it ghastly.
DB: Obviously it didn’t sit with you.
AK: No it did not sit well at all. I don’t know. Is there anything wrong with this story device?
DB: I find it uncomfortable.
AK: Because I’m uncomfortable or because it makes you uncomfortable?
DB: No, it makes me uncomfortable and I’m not Jewish.
AK: No! You’re not?
DB: No. [laughter] I’ve always found this sort of thing to be something that you just don’t do in a comic book.
AK: When you say ‘this sort of thing,’ does this have any precedence in your mind, in comic books, this particular subject?
DB: Not until recently. There was a recent issue of Wolverine where they had him in a concentration camp. The only time I’d seen a concentration camp in comic books previously was in an issue of Sgt. Fury, and I expected to see it in Sgt. Fury.
AK: That was about the Howlers being in a concentration camp and fighting back, right? [Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos #52, 1967; “Triumph At Treblinka!”]
DB: Yes.
AK: This is different. This plot device victimizes the victims even further.
DB: Exactly. It’s just uncomfortable to me.
AK: Okay, good.
DB: The lady lying on the ground on page 21, “Please, we cannot move,”…
AK: “Hit me more! Hit me more!”
DB: “Oh, and take away the one jewel that might save us all.”
AK: I confess, that at the time, if De Matteis had been Jewish, I might have let it go without comment. You can’t say the n-word unless you’re black, that sort of thing.
[SEE BELOW FOR J.M. DeMATTEIS'S COMMENTS REGARDING THIS EXCHANGE]
DB: it may be personal preference and taste, but it’s not something I would do. There’s not much that offends me at all, but this does.
AK: I wonder if they got any letters about it? As if comic book fans are real sensitive characters… [chuckles]
DB: I wonder if people picked up on it.
AK: Pick up on it? There it is! Pow! [chuckles]
DB: It’s kind of ironic because people would be highly offended with the Evil Clown stuff that you did.
AK: If you read the National Lampoon in order to be offended, your head would have exploded long before you’d gotten to the Evil Clown. The Evil Clown is supposed to be trash. It’s totally gratuitous. Who did the Evil Clown take on? The Evil Clown didn’t take on concentration camp victims; he’s going against “the system.” In the end, he always brings down the Man. Or himself.
DB: Exactly.
AK: Da Man! [chuckles]
DB: It seems that your artwork drops off in quality from those pages onwards in this issue.
AK: I don’t know. I think the tone of the story changes. They’re all terribly sobered. The Beast is static. He’s lost his usual playful mood. He’s not capering about as usual.
DB: Maybe it’s the Beast. Were you happy drawing the Beast?
AK: Oh, I always enjoyed drawing the Beast. Sure. Good ole Hank. There’s an exaggeration there that’s always fun. When I look at my Defenders work, and the Beast, I see that he’s never just standing there; he’s always kind of weirdly posed. That was his character, from Jack Kirby’s original conception of him in X-Men #1.
DB: I’ll admit that I never liked the last page in this story. The last panel didn’t do it for me. It’s not the drawing, it’s the writing.
AK: Right. Dan Green did all of this inking. He was capable of getting a real nice Joe Sinnott type of effect, like on that Reed Richards face. But then you look at the girl behind him, and that’s crude shit. The lettering placement is very bad, as well. A lot of stuff about the last page doesn’t please me.
DB: There’s a lot of dialogue in it. Panel number three almost reminds me of those old Dell comics where they’d chop the art off, chop heads off, in order to cram the word balloons in.
AK: Unfortunate.
DB: The last issue you did was #212, was one of the more interesting ones.
AK: That’s my cover again.
DB: This issue came in the middle of one of the more interesting Avengers storylines that Jim Shooter wrote, that whole domestic violence arc.
AK: Yeah. On that splash panel Dan Green pulled off the shadowed hallway very well. Do you notice that I have a different establishing shot of Avengers mansion?
DB: Yes.
AK: I like that shot.
DB: I like the fact that Jarvis’s head recedes into his body when he’s startled.
AK: Oh yeah. That’s nice. He’s part turtle. [chuckles] That almost looks like someone re-drew something there, but maybe I just drew it badly, to begin with. The whole upper torso looks very bad. I did not pull off what I was trying to do. But Jarvis pulls himself together quickly by page two.
DB: Your Tigra is good and your Iron Man is impressive, of course leaving a woman in bed. I found that odd because I heard later that Shooter didn’t like depicting anyone in the Marvel Universe having sex.
AK: Didn’t he write the homosexual rape thing in the Hulk?
DB: Yes. But he wouldn’t allow John Byrne to have Northstar say he’s gay.
AK: No, because that would have been positive. Hero good. Rape bad.
DB: Hence homosexuals are bad.
AK: I don’t know. I don’t remember if Jim was homophobe or not. It was never a topic of conversation. We did not have general philosophic conversations, per se. He could expound on his theories of comic books, at length, however.
DB: This issue you got to draw the classic line-up of The Avengers, barring the Hulk obviously.
AK: Yeah. I was even able to put the Wasp in one of my favourite costumes, designed by Bob Powell.
DB: Was the domestic violence aspect apparent to you at the time?
AK: Yellowjacket was going nuts then and it was manifesting itself through domestic violence, wasn’t it?
DB: He was slowly going nuts but in the next issue he actually punches the Wasp in the face. In this issue he just humiliates her.
AK: This behaviour was not depicted as anything positive or admirable. So I had no objection portraying it as something that was clearly bad. I didn’t think about that. I think the irony of it all is, that years, later, Jim Shooter was just as guilty of mental domestic violence as Hank Pym. Perhaps Shooter could write it because he knew it. Of course by that logic, he’d be a homophobe, too.
DB: And Conan the Barbarian pops up.
AK: Good. I’m glad you realised that’s what I did. I put a beard on Gorn and I got a chance to do Conan.
DB: I think on one page someone actually says he’s Conan.
AK: A couple of pages before that I opened some of my Kirby Thor and found a nice Don Blake/Thor transformation sequence and channelled it. It wasn’t a swipe, but I tried to get the flavour. I don’t like the shot of Thor flying, though. It looks as though he’s actually flying under his own power, rather than being pulled along by his magic, uru hammer. In that same vein, on the page before that. The shot of Captain America leaping out of the window? I’m surprised that Shooter didn’t yell at me about that one, either. It also looks like Captain America is flying. Shooter didn’t want artists to draw the kind of picture where a reader might get the wrong idea. If the character can’t fly, don’t draw a picture that makes it look like he can. I think I violated that rule two pages in a row. Generally you’re not penalised for that unless you live in Shooter World. But I know that Shooter gave Alan Weiss incredible grief over just that thing, on occasion. I have huge affection for Bob Powell’s work on the Giant Man feature in Tales To Astonish. So I was happy to play with his Wasp costume.
DB: Did anyone pick up on that?
AK: I don’t know. Actually, I think that’s Powell’s Giant Man costume she’s wearing.
DB: It looks more like Giant Man than the Wasp.
AK: I think that’s his Bob Powell costume she’s wearing. Without the cybernetic helmet that controls ants.
DB: The female equivalent of it.
AK: One thing I can’t stand about this job is that the panels are too busy. But that’s Shooter.
DB: How bad was it working for Shooter?
AK: Bad? I never had any problem working for Shooter. All my indignation vis a vis Shooter is reserved in behalf of other people. Some of them are friends, some are merely colleagues. But this is not the way I would tell a superhero story, with all these tiny panels. Look at all these damn panels!
DB: Would a Shooter plot come in with the panels laid out?
AK: No, story beats only. But a lot of beats. The kind that requires its own panel. Unless a plotter has a specific sequence in mind, he doesn’t generally get too specific. A plotter might occasionally say, “Give me a three panel sequence where we slowly move in.” But generally he just tells you what he wants and you pace it your own way. Sometimes it says, “The following should be from page 17 to page 20,” and that leaves me free to break down three to four pages the way that I see it. As opposed to a script, which is very exact. I’m looking at the page where we introduce Conan, the lower two thirds of the page has terrible balloon placement considering how much script there is. Now on the next page, when they’re in the restaurant, that’s terrible. So crowded. If I had had a script in front of me to work from, I’d have put in the balloons first and then drawn the pictures under them to fit. As it is, it’s too, too much.
DB: I was going to mention that the balloons are starting to chop off heads, it’s back to that Dell thing.
AK: Yeah. It makes the pages heavy and oppressive, in my opinion.
DB: The two guys sitting in the restaurant?
AK: The colouring obscures it, terribly. The guys on the left are Nixon and Ford. And that’s Kissinger sitting at the table behind them. But it does not quite come across. I don’t think my Ford worked at all. That handsome devil in panel one is me with my contacts in. The head waiter is my Franklin Pangborn type-casting.
DB: Is that you being as the Pick-Up Artist, or is it Howard Chaykin?
AK: No, I don’t think it’s anyone in particular. The girl in panel three looks like a Jim Mooney drawing, doesn’t she?
DB: Very much so. All you needed is a tear coming down her cheeks.
AK: Yeah. Kara Jor-El. The figures are all so small in these panels. I wish they were more dynamic.
DB: It’s odd because on this page you have Gorn/Conan standing up and it looks like he’s bent over to fit into the panel. You expect a character to stand up straight to be imposing.
AK: He’s not avoiding the word balloons; it’s my fault. I didn’t do it as well as I should have. I’m sorry.
DB: This one has it’s own domestic violence because Gorn/Conan slaps his wife.
AK: Yeah, it’s a parallel.
DB: It foreshadows what Shooter was going do in the next few issues.
AK: Because of the demands of the plot, I feel I pulled back my camera on the action. Way too far, way too often. I would have liked some more interesting close-ups. I generally try to get at least one decent close-up per page. It’s something human to connect to.
DB: You go for a fair few pages before the Avengers come back into the story.
AK: I like the composition on the page when we get back to The Avengers. When you’re dealing with characters looking up and down at each other, on different planes, it’s good for the composition. Panel one and two are good shots.
DB: You kill Conan on the next page.
AK: Can you see anything in panel two? I can hardly see anything. The guy in the yellow I can see and the rest blends in to the background because of the bad colouring and lousy printing job.
DB: They’re black with a black background and they don’t stand out. How do I put this without sounding bad…isn’t it slightly racist to have black people attacking?
AK: No, I don’t think so. I’m trying to think of a reason why it would be racist. You think there’s a lot mixed race gangs going around mugging people? I don’t. Not gangs. That only happens in comic books. Kirby kid gangs.
DB: Are there in New York?
AK: Well, this is Washington DC. Which is even worse than New York. I’m no expert, but I doubt that there are many mixed race gangs.
DB: But there wouldn’t be gangs of white people?
AK: Not as many. I don’t think there would be. [laughter] Of course there could have been, and if you want to play it safe and not offend anybody then go ahead and be PC. But the odds say that it’s going to be a black gang.
DB: And then there’s the black blood after he gets shot.
AK: Well, that’s to avoid the red blood. I think that red blood was not allowed by the Comics Code, at that stage.
DB: Frank Miller tells a story about he got around the red blood. He says that when he was drawing Daredevil he visited the actual printers…
AK: Oh, so he did it in the colour hold?
DB: Yes. What he found out was that no-one who was checking knew what the colours were because they only saw the black and white line art and when it got to the printers no-one cared. So when he got the art back to script he’d make sure that Klaus Janson would colour the blood red and then he’d send it off and no-one at Marvel knew until the book was in print. Suddenly blood was red. It worked out quite well and I always wondered why in every Marvel book blood was black and yet in Daredevil it was red.
AK: Those cops are badly drawn and the guns are worse.
DB: They’re both clearly great shots because neither of them is aiming at him yet both hit him.
AK: I draw terrible guns. That’s why I like thugs fighting with pipes and knives. There are some nice action scenes in the small panels with the fight with Captain America.

DB: Panel two on page 19 almost looks like a Kirby.
AK: It’s got a good feel to it. I like it. For some reason it doesn’t remind me of me. It’s kind of a cute page. The page before is good to, especially the Iron Man.
DB: Your Iron Man is good; we’ve talked about that before.
AK: You’ve seen the issues of Iron Man that I drew?
DB: I can’t recall it.
AK: On the next to last page, where Janet blows up the truck, it doesn’t come across. In the second panel I drew a very crazy look on Hank’s face.
DB: I think it comes across.
AK: It’s okay, but it’s not the way I drew it, unless I think I drew a masterpiece. That might be what’s happened; I might be delusional.
DB: This issue wasn’t a fill-in, it’s a sequential issue.
AK: Well it was a fill-in as far as the artist. I was a placeholder for the next artist.
DB: Which was Bob Hall. Now how did Bob Hall land the gig and not you?
AK: I don’t know.
DB: This issue has a letters page that talks about your first issue, #205.
AK: And it says what? Anything good?
DB: Yes. The only flaws that people pointed out were factual mistakes in the stories. Someone goes as far as to say that the explosion on page 22 was the best that they’ve ever seen.
AK: Letters pages. Well, I’ve given you my thoughts about letters pages. They don’t necessarily reflect any reality. The editors can print anything. You never know what’s going on behind the scenes. What’s the agenda of the person putting together the letters page?
DB: You used to write letters pages?
AK: That’s true too, but I didn’t say anything…that situation was different. Marvel solicited a real fan to write real letters for the letters page. That’s different than someone in the office writing or cherry picking letters with a particular POV. A POV that doesn’t reflect the majority opinion expressed. To the exclusion of those that do. The letters that I wrote were still a fan’s point of view. Written under different names. I didn’t say anything that wasn’t in my heart in the letters I made up. But when you’re on staff you can push an agenda, if you have the inclination.
DB: How do you look back at The Avengers?
AK: With great fondness. Because these are the guys, the original Marvel heroes. Even the early issues, with the Vision, well the Vision was a character from Marvel’s primo days, from the Avengers best run. And the Scarlet Witch goes back to the original Kirby X-Men. Great fun. The Vision was a great character that I love to draw, anytime. I never cared about the Avengers after Roy Thomas left the writing. I know that people really love Englehart’s work on it, and Perez. But I have no idea what happened on the title after Roy left, though I read the stuff. I know there were characters like the robot woman, Jocasta. But I don’t know anything about those days except what I encountered later drawing the Avengers and the Defenders with Moon Dragon and the like.
DB: Were you disappointed that you never drew more issues of the title?
AK: Oh, sure. As I said, these are some great characters. I could have been happy on a book like that forever.

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FURTHER READING

ADDENIUM:

For clarity and fairness sake I contacted J.M. DeMatteis and offered him a chance to respond to both Alan and my comments. Here's what he had to say:

J.M DeMATTIES: Actually, I was raised by an Italian-Catholic father and a Russian-Jewish mother. We had Christmas, we had Hanukkah, Passover, Easter...and I even had a bar mitzvah. So let's clear that up! (Not that I believe, for an instant that you have to be Jewish to write about the Holocaust. Any more than you have to be a woman to write from a woman's perspective or African America to write about the African American experience.)

As you noted, this story was written a LONG time ago. I have no recollection of Alan's objections to the story. I'm sure it happened, but, more than two decades later, I honestly can't recall it.

The point was that the jewel couldn't save them. They were already dead. (As Wonder Man says: "It's revived the spirit in a lifeless husk.") They were reanimated corpses, brought to life by a desperate, heartbroken man who couldn't bear to lose the people he loved most in the world. To leave them in that state would have been a sin against man and God. At least that was the point as I recall it.

All that said, the story was written very early in my career. I was hardly a master of my craft. I make no claims for it as art...or even a great comic. (It might not even be a good one.) It was simply my attempt to explore how far people will go, in the face of the horrors of death, to bring back those they love.

Being older and (I hope) wiser, I totally understand why Alan would be uncomfortable with that sequence...how it could seem, from his perspective, to trivialize the Holocaust...and I don't know if I would write it the same way (or at all) today. At the same time, I believe fantasy can be used to illuminate the most horrifying issues in human history. Many writers, from Isaac Singer to Garbiel Garcia Marquez to Rod Serling, have used fantasy to shine a unique, and powerful, light on these issues.

I also have to say that your comment re: "hit me more" bothered me. There's no such dialogue in the story...and you make it seem that there is. Most important: Whatever the merits (or lack of same) of the story in question, please don't misrepresent the intention of the story...and please don't ever suggest that I was "making fun" of the Holocaust. That, to me, is far more offensive than anything you can find in that ancient issue of AVENGERS.
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Alan Kupperberg's official web-site.

Tuesday, May 29, 2007

The Destruction Of Norm Breyfogle's Original Art

DESTROY ALL ART!!!

It’s enough to make you cry. A while back I decided to buy up as much of Norm Breyfogle’s original trading card art as I could find. This resulted in me digging up some nice pieces and also finding that there were some pieces that people just didn’t want to part with. I can understand that – I’m not parting with my Norm art either. So far my quest has seen me end up with five of Norm’s cards, out of approximately thirty*. Not many at all really, but I am about to buy some more to at least bring my tally up to ten. Ultimately I want all of them but I now know that’s just not going to happen for a number of reasons.

The first of these is a fairly innocuous reason – some people don’t want to part with their original art. Fair call. As I stated I can more than understand that stance. When I find a piece that isn’t going to be sold I just chalk it down to one that I won’t own. It stays on the wants list but it’s not a priority. However there’s now a secondary reason as to why I’ll never own all the art – it’s been defaced and damaged beyond repair, deliberately, and far as I’m concerned it’s a crime.

I first became aware of this art destruction early this year when I came across one of Norm’s cards on eBay. The card was promoted as being drawn and coloured by Norm, something that made me think. I posted a message on Norm’s forum asking about the veracity of the piece as I was under the impression that all of his trading card was simply line art – black and white. At the time Norm responded, “I didn't color that, I think it's a really stupid idea to hand color an original that the original artist didn't intend to be colored, and it looks like a crummy coloring job, anyway.

“If it is the original, whoever colored it might've run into difficulty if I didn't use all waterproof ink in my inking (and I may not have, since the original wasn't meant to be colored). I should add that I consider it an immoral act to alter another's original art without the original artist's authorization.” I agreed with him and decided to put this card into the basket which is marked, ‘Damaged beyond repair’. I didn’t bother bidding, just crossed it off my own personal list. The last line in Norm’s comments did make me think, but at the time I was busy with other projects so I let it go.

Until now.

(To the left is the original art for the DC Universe trading card you see on your right)

This week has seen yet another defaced trading card appear on eBay. This time the art was described as being ‘painted’ by Norm himself. I again pointed it out to Norm, who again responded via his forum, “…we did discuss another one that had suffered the same destruction. I wouldn't be surprised if they were both done by the same person. And no, the destroyer wasn't me!

“Okay, once was bad enough, but now I'm getting pissed. Is there any legal recourse for an artist who sells his originals and then watches the buyer destroy them in this manner?” To be honest I didn’t know the answer to that. In order to help find an answer I posted a message on the Comic-Art mailing list about this topic. Sadly the bulk of the people there were far too engrossed in discussing the merits of Bruce Timm drawing naked ladies pleasuring themselves, so after one response I decided to go onto another tack. The suggestion that I got was that Norm might want to start exploring a contract of sorts between himself and the purchaser of his original art, whereby the purchaser agrees to not knowingly mutilate, deface of destroy the art (clearly if a house burnt down then all bets are off). The pay-off would be that if someone did do any of the above then they’d be potentially held liable for damages to Norm’s own reputation. I passed that suggestion onto Norm who was obviously thinking along the same lines and is now looking into drafting and putting such an agreement into place. After all when we buy original art we’re the custodians of the art and as such it’s our responsibility to look after the art and ensure that it doesn’t become defaced or otherwise damaged.

I also decided to contact the seller of the piece and sent the following email, “Hi, Just a heads up - this isn't a Breyfogle painting. He did all his trading card art in black and white and someone not associated with Norm coloured some of the art in at a later date. Just letting you know. The sad thing is I'd have bid on the art if it were still in it's unaltered form – but the colours on this aren't that good and they ruin the appeal of the art. Feel free to contact me if you want to talk about it some more." The seller then responded, “Hello, clearly you must be correct. I purchased this art this way. I also heard from Norm directly and have changed the listing and lowered the price.” No animosity and they then dropped the price from the original asking price of $500 down to a more reasonable $175. I won’t be buying it though, although I’d have more than considered it. Norm also contacted the seller and got a similar response. The seller also informed Norm that they bought this particular piece of art and the other offending piece (which I sadly didn’t save a scan of) already coloured from the same person, meaning that someone, somewhere is practicing their colouring ‘skills’ on professional art. Put this into a form of perspective – if you owned a sketch by say Monet, would you allow ANYONE to colour it in, no matter their qualifications? If you answered yes then you, sir, are an idiot (and no, I’m not comparing Norm Breyfogle to Monet, but art is art and in the eyes of some people they’d much rather own an original by Neal Adams over a Claude Monet sketch).

Insane! But of course.

Is it legal to deface original art? Well there’s no law against me getting anyone’s original art and using it to line my cat’s kitty litter tray. I can use it to mop up the oil that leaks from the sump of my car. I can hand it over to kids and let them wipe their crayons over it. It’s nothing new really. On a rainy day such as this one I’m reminded how, back in the day of Timely Comics, they used to line the floor with original art so that people wouldn’t track mud into the offices. So while it might be legal, it’s certainly not moral. When I spoke to Mike Esposito about the subject of original art among other comments he had this to say, “My nephew coloured a Hogarth Tarzan page with thick crayons, and now they’re worth ten thousand dollars each. The only reason we got those was because Hogarth was nice enough to say, ‘Take what you want fellows,’ because we were his students. And he thought we’d appreciate them. He never thought they’d have any value otherwise he’d never have done it.” I like to think that if Hogarth knew Mike’s nephew would be attacking his originals with crayons he might have thought twice about letting Mike take those Sunday Tarzan strips. This is not to say that Norm’s trading card art is worth as much as an original Burne Hogarth Tarzan page, but to the right person, any art is priceless (unless it’s been ruined). How much would I pay for Norm’s art? Let me say this, if anyone came up with the right pieces then we’d be talking some decent cabbage indeed.

Misrepresentation? Absolutely.

As I previously touched upon the art in question is hardly a painting and isn’t from the paintbox of Norm. If someone bought that in good faith thinking they were getting a pure Breyfogle original and then found out that they’d spent a few hundred on what at best is a partial fake then they’d be rightly angry. They could come after Norm himself, who might have no knowledge of what art the person is talking about. It damages his reputation as both an artist and as a person.

For example, to the left is the art in question; to the right of this paragraph is one of Norm’s paintings. Now if you bought the Superboy card thinking it represented Norm Breyfogle’s painting abilities would you bother buying any more of his art? But then if you bought the Batman painting, well you’d clearly go back for more surely? If the price was right then you would. However if you were looking to commission an artist to paint for you and all you’d seen is that trading card then odds on you’d not hire him. Clearly the person who did that can’t colour all that well and certainly isn’t professional enough to warrant any serious work.

(To the left is how the trading card in question finally appeared. Sadly there's no scan of the original art)

At the end of the day it now means is that I doubt I’ll ever own an original from Norm’s ‘Firepower’ trading card line, nor will I be able to completely own all his trading card original art that's on the open market. But then I doubt that anyone will own a 'Firepower' original as some of the originals have been defaced beyond repair. You can’t remove the colours from the originals, they’re there for good. The other sad part is that Norm will be more cautious about selling his original art. He’ll never truly know if someone isn’t buying the art to practice their own artistic fantasies upon. He’ll still put his all into each and every piece that he sends out and will sell them in good faith, but then that faith might be violated by someone who wants to ruin them for all time. That’s the idiot minority though as the majority treat their original art as it should be treated – as items of value, both monetary and personally and as one-off pieces of art worthy of display. They might not be Picasso’s but, for some people, they’re better than that. The thrill of reading a book, a magazine or a comic book and knowing that the illustration in question is in your possession can’t be denied. To ruin art like that, well I just don’t understand that mentality at all.

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*So what exactly is out there in the way of Norm's original trading card art? To answer that we need to look at what Norm did do in the trading card field. Here’s a partial checklist:


NERD DETECTIVE CARDS

Norm did seven of these cards back in the day. They were given away attached to packets of Nerds candy. These are amongst the rarest of Norm's trading cards to collect.

Batman vs Two Face (I own this one)
Batman vs Bane
Batman vs The Joker
Batman vs Dr. Victor Fries
Batman vs The Penguin
Robin vs The Riddler
Robin vs Poison Ivy



DC UNIVERSE TRADING CARD GAME

Batman
Killer Croc
Thorn (I own this one)
Brainiac (I own this one)
The Joker
The Joker (inked by Bill Sienkiewicz - as seen on your right)
Superman



DC FIREPOWER TRADING CARDS

Superman punching
Superman heat vision
Superman flying
Superman Rescue (damaged beyond repair)
Superboy Rescue (damaged beyond repair)
Superboy flying
The Joker
The Spectre



OTHER CARDS

Prime (done for Hero Magazine #7, January 1994)
Prime (Ultraverse Trading Card set)
Batman (DC Stars series)
Mr T (insert with issues of Mr T)



HOLO CARDS

I’m not sure what sets these appeared in but Norm also provided the following art to a series of DC trading cards as Holographic cards in 1997

Superman Planets
Superman Robot
Superman Eyes
Batman Frozen
Parasite
Rose & The Thorn (I own this one)
Two Face/Harvey Dent (I own this one - you can see a scan of one of the original art pieces to the left. As this was a holographic card there are three separate pieces of art)

There’s possibly more. If anyone has sets of trading cards out there and can help complete this list then get in touch.

Saturday, May 26, 2007

Alan Kupperberg Looks Back: WHAT IF?

What If? was a great concept for a comic book. DC had been flirting with such stories for decades, calling them 'imaginary stories' (but, as it was pointed out, aren't all comic books imaginary?) but there was no such animal at Marvel. That is until the mid 1970s when Roy Thomas decided to pitch his idea for a new series that would revolve around the premise of 'what if?'. The 'what if?' premise was simple - a story existed and was accepted as canon, but what if something else had happened in that story? The classic example that Roy used for his first issue was 'What If Spider-Man had joined the Fantastic Four?' This story line existed because Spider-Man had attempted to join the FF in his first ever issue, only to be turned down. It was a simple deviation, what if they'd accepted him as a new member? Then the Marvel Universe would never be the same. From there anything was possible. Any event in the Marvel Universe was open slather. What if Gwen Stacey lived? What if there was no Fantastic Four? What if Wolverine had killed the Hulk? What if Elektra had lived? What if Marvel had given Jack Kirby back his artwork in the '60s? Well the latter is just supposition I guess, there was no book with that title, but the others, and more were produced.

Part of the appeal of the 'What If?' series was that the book had no steady team working on it. During it's time the book boasted the artistic talents of Frank Miller, John Byrne, Michael Golden, Tom Sutton, Gil Kane, John Romita, Jim Mooney, Herb Trimpe, Alan Kupperberg, Ron Wilson and more, as well as the lesser known, and used, talents such as Bill Black. Writers included Roy Thomas (of course), Steve Skeates, Tom DeFalco, Bill Mantlo and others. It was a showcase title in many ways.

Although the unofficial rule was that these stories didn't happen in the regular Marvel Universe, Roy managed to twist things ever so slightly and introduce two stories that he then retrospectively introduced into regular Marvel continuity - issues #4 and #9 were later established as having 'happened' and weren't strictly speaking genuine 'what if?' concepts.

Alan Kupperberg drew as many 'What If?'s as anyone else with his work featuring in ten issues of the run. He also managed to get a few writing credits and when he was allowed to create as he saw fit, especially on his final issue, he showed that he was as good as anyone running around at Marvel at the time. What now follows is Alan's own recollections on the titles that he both drew and wrote, for the 1970s series 'What If?' Get your comic books out and re-read them and experience them in a new light with Alan guiding the way.

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DANIEL BEST: Let’s start with ‘What If?’ number eight.
ALAN KUPPERBERG: I see an old, bald, Jewish woman, standing there in the splash panel hanging out her wash on the clothes line.
DB: I take it you never liked drawing The Watcher?
AK: Oh, I like the Watcher fine. I’m just not crazy about this drawing. I was going for something that I didn’t pull off. I was trying to foreshorten the Watcher’s arm, and I didn’t do it right. And the figure is too short, as well. On the other hand the story is told clearly. [laughter] Actually there is a storytelling flaw here. I would have preferred to have a full figure of Daredevil to establish him clearly on the splash page there somewhere. But that’s a minor quibble. I guess most people know who Daredevil is.
DB: You were inked by Jim Mooney on this story.
AK: Yes, that was very nice.
DB: Mooney didn’t ink you all that much did he?
AK: Not too much. He inked a Spider-Man I did and an issue of Thor or two.
DB: How did you feel about being inked by Mooney? He’s a fairly unique inker.
AK: You mean he has a distinctive style of his own?
DB: Yeah.
AK: Well it’s very obvious to me that it’s his inking. I liked it very much. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it.
DB: On page two, panel five, there’s a classic example of Mooney’s ‘eyes’. Something I’ve noticed having studied Mooney a fair bit for the book is that he has a unique way of inking and drawing eyes, they generally come out looking like Supergirl.
AK: True. I recognise almost everything about his work. It’s instinctive to me. I look at the way he does the folds and hair and eyes, and his line texture. But yes, you’re right, that looks absolutely like Supergirl, or at least her eyes.
DB: How did it come about that you got to draw ‘What If?’
AK: It’s a Roy Thomas and Don Glut production, so I guess I came to it the same way I got on The Invaders. I went sniffing around the office and hit on Roy for some work.
DB: Was this the first time you drew Spider-Man and Daredevil?
AK: In print, I believe so. I really felt that Mooney made a lot of my figures look nice and professional.
DB: Did you do full pencils?
AK: The credits say ‘Co-Artists and Craftsmen’ so I guess it was pencils. When I look at the results of Mooney’s inking, there’s not a lot of difference between my layouts and my pencils, it looks like Mooney. I got the assignment on October 7th, 1977.
DB: The book didn’t appear until April 1978; at least that’s when it was cover dated.
AK: At the same time I was laying out Star Wars #10 for Howard Chaykin.
DB: And getting your huge ‘Kupperberg’ credit.
AK: Yeah, getting that big credit box. Before Star Wars, I did Bloodstone. The reason I started getting a lot of work Marvel was because on August 19th, 1977, I got a pencil assignment for a five page Nighthawk story (Tales To Astonish #13, Vol. 2). It’s listed in my workbook as an inventory job for The Defenders. I did such a beautiful job on that story. It wasn’t perfect, of course, but for me, it was a wowser. I just happened to hit a golden groove. It was lovely, it was so sweet, and that’s what I used to show people to try and get jobs. And it paid off a month or two later when I got this ‘What If?’ I’m looking at that Nighthawk job now. It was inked by Bill Wray. And I felt that he massacred it. Not only that, but when it was printed it was the most horrendous printing job you have ever seen. The colours were out of registration and it was just awful. I’m looking at it now. The blacks are all blobbed up and the art…I hope I have the Xeroxes of the pencils somewhere so I can reproduce it someday.
DB: Back to the ‘What If?, the premise of this issue was ‘What If Daredevil Could See?’
AK: They didn’t do much with it did they? They sort of just rehashed a lot of old stuff.
DB: Yeah.
AK: It’s not doing anything interesting. Not going any place new.
DB: The artwork throughout the whole issue is good and does tell the story well. The thing I always got out of this one is on page 17 when Karen Page finally guesses Daredevil is Matt Murdock, I always found it amusing how these characters can never work that out earlier. [chuckles]
AK: In the bottom panel on page 14, I swiped that shot from the original Joe Orlando (Daredevil) story. The Owl’s headquarters. If they asked for an establishing shot, then I’d give them an establishing shot. And Joe Orlando established the Owl’s headquarters. I really liked getting to re-do some of the Gene Colan stuff. That was a lot of fun.
DB: I was going to mention that some of the poses look very familiar.
AK: Yeah. Oh, the shot on the top of page 19 is probably from the original Wally Wood/Bob Powell story. The figure on panel three of the same page is very Bob Powell. That special Bob Powell body torque. I looked at my art, and recognised the art style of the original story, which was Wally Wood and Bob Powell. I really liked panel two on page 22. That’s a very Wally Wood type montage.
DB: The Cobalt Man on page 23 looks like a combination of Wally Wood and Hal Foster.
AK: That was what was called for, the castles and the armour.
DB: Page 27, in the first panel…
AK: That’s my Gene Colan mojo going on there. Was that story originally inked by Frank Giacoia or John Tartaglione?
DB: I think it was Giacoia.
AK: Right. From the Daredevil figure, which was a full-page panel in the original story, I’d say it was Frank’s inking.
DB: How did you find Gene Colan’s work? He couldn’t have been an easy artist to copy.
AK: Well, yes and no. I know he must have been hard to ink. When I was a kid I couldn’t wrap my head around some of it. Colan’s use of negative space baffled me. I’d ask myself, “Why is he wasting half a panel with nothing going on in it?” But when I grew up, I started to appreciate what he was doing. Especially because when I was a kid his artwork was not often inked to its best advantage. The first Colan that I was aware of was inked by Vinnie Colletta on the Sub-Mariner series that began in Tales To Astonish #60.
DB: Did you ever have an opportunity to ink Colan?
AK: No, and it’s a good thing I didn’t because I probably would have ruined it. I didn’t get wise for a long time. When you ink somebody, you might as well just ink it and don’t fuck around with it. I got to ink a Carmine Infantino issue of Star Wars. I thought, “I’m gonna fix all the little things that drove me crazy about Carmine’s work all my life.” And that was not a good idea. Because it was like tipping over the first domino. Then you have to re-pencil the whole thing, or face total disaster. The entire process is not practical, desirable or wise.
DB: There’s more Colanish images on page 30, especially panel three.
AK: The Daredevil is so distorted I wonder if it’s copied or not, because the bad guy doesn’t fit. This is what I’d call a lazy page. A lot of shortcuts.
DB: I do like the punch to the eye on the last panel. [laughter]
AK: Generally we didn’t do that sort of thing. You’d see the follow through.
DB: That one is right on the impact.
AK: And the guys’ legs are going out from under him. Clobbered. Now on page 34, stacking six panels like that [laughter] is overly ambitious. You could get away with stacking four or five panels and maybe no one would notice. But I think six might be slicing it too thin.
DB: We’ve spoken about that before, with panel design in The Invaders, when Shooter came in and it became straight six panel grids.
AK: Except for the splash panel on this job it’s told very straightforwardly.
DB: Peter Parker on page 35 is a John Romita.
AK: Well, no, it’s me, but these characters were inked by Jim Mooney who knows them. Look at panel three. That panel could be straight out of a Supergirl story.
DB: Absolutely. Mooney used to draw Supergirl and Linda Danvers in a lot of things. Steve Gerber actually told him to draw Linda Danvers in Man-Thing and gave her a different hair-cut. [laughter]
AK: Any girl he drew at least suggested Linda Danvers.
DB: The six stacked panels, was that in the script?
AK: No, that was just my own dumb idea. If you look at my books, you’ll see there are no two pages following each other with the same grid. That’s just something I do naturally. Each page has a different grid so they don’t look boring or static next to each other. When I draw this stuff, I generally don’t know what two pages are going to fall next to each other, except for here and there. For example, when the plot calls for a double page spread. Someone has to know what the ad layout that month is going to be.
DB: The whole issue was hiding behind a Gil Kane cover. So Gil Kane, Jim Mooney and Roy Thomas – that’s a good place to start.
AK: Yeah!


DB: Your next issue was one that’s still fondly remembered, ‘What If?’ number #9.
AK: Alan Kupperberg and Bill Black.
DB: That’s an unusual pairing.
AK: That’s the guy who publishes those reprints right?
DB: Yep.
AK: You know, I never put that together in my mind before. I like the inking a lot more now than I did then.
DB: I like Bill’s art but he didn’t do a lot at Marvel. I think Roy was giving him work because they were old pals. The splash page, in particular Thor, is pretty good.
AK: Thank you. [chuckles] What am I gonna say? I can only see what I would have liked to have done better.
DB: He looks pretty good there, flowing cape, majestic…
AK: I just wish he was drawn better. He’s terribly short waisted, they all are. I’m glad it doesn’t bother you.
DB: As I said, there are quite a few people who look at this issue with a certain degree of fondness.
AK: Including me, but that doesn’t mean I’m blind. Page two is really nice actually. For instance, in the little inset panel at the top, that figure of Iron Man has got something really beautiful going on in it. And what a nicely composed panel, curving around like that. I’m really pleased that this panel comes off better than I remembered. I don’t think that my drawing of Eisenhower looked like that in the pencils. I can almost guarantee my Eisenhower didn’t look like that. Somebody sat on that.
DB: Was that first time you drew Lucy and Desi in a comic book?
AK: For money, yes, and that came off pretty well.
DB: Were they in the script, or did you throw them in?
AK: It may have called for ‘I Love Lucy’, I don’t recall and I don’t have the plot anymore, but it called for iconography of the fifties. My Khrushchev came off pretty well, my Joe McCarthy is fine as is my Elvis in his gold tux. I like this page a lot. The colouring is decent.
DB: Carl Gafford.
AK: The colouring is a little more abstract than my taste would call for. But they’re comics, so what do I expect? Jack Adler cannot colour everything.
DB: The whole concept of having you drawing Chinatown and the 1950s looks like a dry run for The Invaders.
AK: I think I acquitted myself quite well with the period stuff. On page three I like the close-up of Jimmy Woo.
DB: His leg in the last panel…
AK: Holy cow! I just saw his left foot. What do you make of that?
DB: I imagine it’d be very painful to have your leg like that.
AK: I don’t know what I drew, but I know I didn’t draw that. I think that is a classic case of an inker trying to correct bad drawing, and making it worse.
DB: What reference did you get for the 3-D Man?
AK: I think that he appeared in an issue of Marvel Spotlight earlier on. That name sounds like an ‘after the fact’ type of hero, if you know what I mean. What’s emblematic of the 1950s? 3-D films and comics? Okay, he’s “Mister 3-D.”
DB: He has the strength of three men.
AK: Has he?
DB: He can run faster than three men, he can lift as much as three men…
AK: Yeah, but that man is George Burns. He’s got the strength of three George Burnses.
DB: Sorry?
AK: He can run faster than three George Burns. George Burns was about ninety years old at the time. If the 3-D Man has the strength of three George Burns, that’s not all that hot. [chuckles]
DB: True.
AK: [Burns]“Hold on, Gracie, I can be across the room in about an hour and a half if I start now. [burns] Bum, bum, bum.” Oh, motorcycles, one of my least favourite things in the world to draw.
DB: Why is that?
AK: I like drawing people. Backgrounds are necessary because you have to tell the story. But people are what I like to draw. I like to do the action. Machines are a bore.
DB: At least you actually drew backgrounds. There’s been more than a few artists who didn’t do them and still don’t.
AK: When I look at some of the early Marvel issues that Kirby drew in the beginning when he was still drawing everything, sometimes entire pages would go by without him drawing a background.
DB: John Byrne became famous for talking heads and no backgrounds, just floating heads on the page.
AK: I never wanted to become big enough to run a factory. But I did want to become big enough so that if I didn’t draw a background, then editors wouldn’t complain. I drew backgrounds in just about every panel because I felt insecure.
DB: On page six, panel four…
AK: The speed lines are the background. Panel two on page seven has no background.
DB: That’s a classic John Byrne talking head panel.
AK: Two figures standing on a splash page with no background. That’s the classic John Byrne panel, to me.
DB: The Yellow Claw.
AK: The Yellow Craw… I can see in that first shot of the Yellow Claw, that’s from the Joe Maneely model. I can tell. And the first shot of Voltzmann, that’s a Joe Maneely shot too.
DB: How familiar were you about Joe Maneely?
AK: He died before I started paying attention to comic books, so it was through reprints that I became at all familiar with him. I read whatever Marvel reprinted, and that did not include a lot of Maneely. I didn’t really follow Marvel westerns until I became a Marvel Zombie at the end of my fan days, so whatever they reprinted in the westerns was what I knew, as well as the odd Black Knight reprint here and there. And the reproduction was not always the greatest. Stan Lee has often said that if Joe Maneely had lived he might have become the look of Marvel. And become one of the giants of the industry. And I quite wonder about that. I don’t know.
DB: I feel the same. When I think of Maneely I think of westerns, because, much like you that’s all I’d seen. But then I guess we’ll never know how he’d gone with the superhero stuff.
AK: He had done one or two Sub-Mariner covers in the fifties, which I did not find impressive. I think I’ve seen more good looking Joe Maneely stuff in Alter Ego, from Roy Thomas, than anywhere else. Mainly, due to the fine reproduction in Alter Ego as opposed to the original comics.
DB: We had a lot of Yellow Claw material reprinted in Australia so I read Maneely before I was aware of it. All of your Claw looks Maneelish. Was that a conscious thing?
AK: Well that was the reference material that I had, and why not? Homage. I don’t think I was even aware of the Kirby Claw material. I knew Steranko’s Claw, of course. But I was going for an era-appropriate Claw. Do you know the Get Smart stuff? The Craw? Because that’s all I could think of when I was drawing this.
DB: It must be subliminal because that’s all I could think of when I read it. “Not the Craw, the Craw!”
AK: I saw Get Smart before I saw Fu Manchu or any other Asian Warlord/bad guy, so the first Oriental villain I had in my head was The Craw. The Craw was my favourite Get Smart foe.
DB: Jann Of The Jungle, who actually did appear in the 1950s and Gorilla Grodd…
AK: [laughter] Yeah, I was gonna say that to you to try and get a laugh.
DB: He looks like Gorilla Grodd to me.
AK: He’s named Gorilla Man. I’d like to draw Congo Bill and Congorillia.
DB: This issue wasn’t so much a ‘What If?’…
AK: It was kind of whole thing by itself. Marvel is doing a series with these characters now, called ‘The Agents Of Atlas’.
DB: It reminds me of a similar story that Roy did earlier in the run of ‘What If?’ where he did a story about The Invaders staying together after World War II.
AK: I guess this format is flexible enough to support that kind of exploration.
DB: It’s not a ‘What If?’ though is it?
AK: It is a ‘What If?’ I understand what you’re saying, but I think it’s also a ‘What If?’ because the title says “What If?’ along with the premise. There’s your story. It’s a ‘What If?’ Now, whether you write a good story or a bad story, that is another story.
DB: What do you make of your Avengers poses on page 14 and 15?
AK: I think they’re pretty good. They were better in pencil form. Let me say something else about pencils. When you get down to it, layouts and pencils have unlimited potential. Depending on the skill and commitment of the finisher, whether it be yourself or another, you’ve got the potential for a masterpiece on every job. Most of the time, finished artwork is just finished artwork. This is as good as it’s going to get. It is what it is. So that’s another reason to feel disappointed whenever you see your work inked. If this panel had been finished off by Neal Adams, it would have blown my mind, it would have been beautiful. Now all I can say that it’s decent. [chuckle] This double page spread was an experiment that did not really work. It doesn’t really read across the two pages very well. I like the promise in the pencils of the figure of The Watcher in the first panel, but once again, I badly blew the foreshortening.
DB: On page 19 you have the Avengers from the 1950s.
AK: Can you imagine what that meeting room must have smelt like? Gorilla funk and lube oil.
DB: I don’t think I’d really want to know.
AK: Were the villains pre-existing?
DB: They have reference so I guess they were. Outside of The Cold Warrior I expect that they were.
AK: I like the Voltzmann on page 23, he looks properly maniacal.
DB: On the same page you’ve got your Maneely, your Caniff stuff and you have Ike playing golf.
AK: That’s a very hilly golf course. Some of my Eisenhower’s shots were really good but didn’t quite come across in the inks.
DB: It looks like he’s dancing on the next page.
AK: “Look, Mamie, I’m doing the frug!” Eisenhower’s voice was kind of like Clark Gable. Now that Jimmy Woo figure on panel five, I like the pose but the anatomy is impossible. It looks like my fault to me. His waist is very high, his arms are very long and he’s very embarrassed to look like chimp, which is why he’s hiding in the shadows.
DB: There’s lot of cheesecake shots in the book.
AK: On page 25 it looks like Ms Venus there is trying to lick her own breasts. “If I could just get my head down a little more…” I was getting loose, and by loose I mean kind of sloppy.
DB: Was that due to the fact that you were drawing a double sized book?
AK: Well, I hadn’t drawn too many comic books by that stage so it’s not like I was used to anything, but no, I don’t think it was due to that. If I got a good pose or a good picture back then I didn’t take time to worry about the anatomy. I just said, okay the picture works.
DB: On page 27 it’s a great example of how you’re able to tell a story without action.
AK: A nice different variety of shots. A medium shot. A close-up. A cast shadow silhouette. It’s nice and it’s fun. The page moves along well, without anything dynamic happening. I also remember that my Eisenhower in panel two was very well pencilled and that comes across fairly well in the inks. That comes close to looking like the real person.
DB: On page 34 you have more stacked panels.
AK: But that doesn’t strike me as being stacked up like a pile of pancakes, like with six panels. I frequently used a five panel stack and it didn’t bother me at all. No one asked me not to do it. But come to think of it, some editors were not happy with it. I can’t recall specifically who, though. On page 35 the gorilla in the first panel looks like a Frank Robbins drawing, kind of rubbery. When I say I like or dislike a drawing it’s usually because it either does or doesn’t look like a drawing. When I look at something that strikes me as having been badly drawn, I’ll say, “Oh, look at that bad drawing.” But when I don’t notice the drawing, that’s a good thing. Because the object is to move the story forward clearly and dynamically. It’s not to show off and certainly not to get in your own way.
DB: Page 37, panel four. That’s a pretty damn good figure.
AK: Well, she’s kind of short waisted and has a peanut head. But other than that, she’s beautiful. [laughter] Let me put it this way, if I woke up next to something like that in the morning, you’d hear my scream in Adelaide. Her head is approximately the same size as her knee.
DB: You’re right, there you go. [laughter] The end of the book sees the characters all in the White House. This was a huge issue for you, over forty odd pages. Would that have been the largest book you’d drawn to that point?
AK: Oh probably, yes.
DB: Even your previous issue was just over thirty pages.
AK: What I want to know is this; why am I forcing President Dwight David Eisenhower to work at a card table in the Oval Office? Page 44, panel one. The Avengers. I like that panel. It looks to me like the face of the 3-D Man was re-drawn by John Romita. That panel is a fine example of overlapping different planes of a drawing to achieve a sense of depth. In the last panel in this book, The Watcher has more the proper proportions I would have liked to have gotten before. I don’t know why I went nuts and made him so stubby before.
DB: Why did The Watcher change so much?
AK: It was just me bashing about and not taking the time to go back and re-do it. But mostly, during the “velocity of creation,” I just didn’t notice it until it was too late.

DB: Issue number #20, “What If the Avengers had fought the Kree-Skrull War without Rick Jones”. Now this is a damn good issue. Bruce Patterson’s inks really brought a lot to your artwork.
AK: My copy starts on page six. The first three pages are by Sal Buscema.
DB: Why did Sal pencil those pages?
AK: He started the job and for some reason he didn’t finish it.
DB: You’re credited with layouts on this book.
AK: This issue was mostly made up of recapitulations of other artist’s work, so if you think you recognise Neal Adams, here and there, that’s why.
DB: The last panel on page seven.
AK: Much of the page. I didn’t take Neal’s stuff and light box it; I just looked at it and did my own interpretation of his stuff.
DB: You worked on the original story didn’t you?
AK: Yes I did, a bit. I did panel blacks, worked on some of the backgrounds and I may have inked a few straight lines. That was up at DC Comics, after hours.
DB: How did it feel going back and drawing this story after being involved with the original?
AK: This was in 1980, so it was about, eight years later. So a long time had passed already. It was very nice and it felt good. I thought that the swipes of Neal’s stuff that I did look very good.
DB: Your figures in this book looked very impressive.
AK: Yeah, it’s not bad. In retrospect, I think a lot of my problems with the young inkers that they put on my pencils is, that I don’t recognise their work. When Jim Mooney inks me, or Wally Wood or Neal Adams inks my work, I say, “Oh that’s an inker. I recognise this stuff, it’s Mooney or Wood or Adams.” So when these new guys inked me it didn’t look like anything I was familiar with. I didn’t recognise my style. I didn’t recognise the inker’s style. So I wasn’t happy with it. Is it bad to be so limited? If you don’t recognise it, you don’t like it?
DB: No, I don’t think so at all.
AK: It doesn’t matter, because why judge a person? What I think is what I think, so who cares? But it does give an insight to my attitude. Or insanity.
DB: On page 14, Captain America’s face, to me is classic Neal Adams.
AK: It’s the gritted teeth. One my favourite figures that I drew in the comic was the Iron Man figure in the last panel. That came out well. Again, out of all these pages there’s a nice variety of shots, close-ups, long shots, middle shots, panels moved around and a variety of panel sizes.
DB: I’ve always thought that this issue was the best out of all of the ‘What If?’s that you did. As you’ve pointed out you channelled those Avengers issues. A great example is on page 16 you have Captain Marvel coming through the door is very similar to the famous Vision splash page.
AK: Again, I am able to do that in my own way without aping Neal. In my own layout style I tried to channel what I liked about Neal’s stuff. Because I never thought Neal was that great a storyteller.
DB: It’s a very daring ‘What If?’ in that in one issue it’s retelling a story that took nine issues to tell originally and not only do you pull that off but you also manage to bring in pretty much every character in the Marvel Universe at the time. On page 19 you have both the Fantastic Four and the X-Men making appearances.
AK: You’ve got to give that to the writer. I just drew what he asked me to draw in the plot.
DB: That’s a lovely Gil Kane head on Xaiver.
AK: You see Gil Kane in there? I guess I can see what you’re saying, but…
DB: Rivalling Sal Buscema’s splash page is the splash on page 22. It has everything and everyone in it.
AK: It’s not bad.
DB: Although I’ve never understood why Daredevil and Black Widow are standing on a mountain.
AK: I wonder. That doesn’t sound like a logical choice. Why would I choose that?
DB: Perhaps you were drawing mountains behind the Inhumans?
AK: That could be it. Everyone else got their own background.
DB: Were they added in?
AK: No, I drew it, but I don’t know why I drew it that way. I’m thinking that they might have asked me to do it that way. Everyone else is in their natural element. Why are Daredevil and Black Widow not? I don’t know. What was going on in Daredevil during that issue of the Avengers?
DB: This issue shows that not only were you good at the non action material, when the story called for it you could do all out action. From page 23 onwards it’s very much action and at a very fast pace.
AK: I keep it moving. The action is all to the right. I try to keep it moving in the same direction. I keep going in the direction that a person reads, generally. Page 27 there’s a couple of panels that go to the left. That’s a nice page, as is 26.
DB: On page 27 you have the classic zig-zag flow – in panel three the Skrull is looking down at panel four, which leads into panel five and so on.
AK: Oh yeah, the stuff flows.
DB: That is something you are known for and it’s an underappreciated skill.
AK: Yes, especially by me. I tend to take what is right for granted and I always notice the mistakes. For instance, I take for granted that most of my panels contain some element of perspective in them. And this has the effect of drawing a person into the panel. Look at those pages, you’ll see that in each panel there’s some form of perspective in it. The perspective, with its vanishing point, is something that draws the eye and the reader in.
DB: You’ve got Thor and the Asgard Gods, you’ve got every known superhero boarding a bus of some description…
AK: That’s the Sacred Schooner of the Stars. [laughter] I feel like yelling at the heroes, warning them, “Don’t go! The book! It’s a COOK book.”
DB: On page 38 Daredevil is coloured black.
AK: I think Carl Gafford thought that was the Black Panther. Or the White Panther. Because he’s coloured “white.” I don’t know what happened, but now I see that the Black Panther is also in that panel.
DB: There’s another dancing man in that panel.
AK: I like the bottom panel on page 36. That’s a real drawing. Captain America in panel two on page 39 is kind of nice, but The Vision in the last panel is overworked in the inks.
DB: It all ties up quite neatly.
AK: With the Star Baby from 2001. Was that in the original story at all?
DB: No, because in the original story Rick Jones lived. In this story Rick Jones died. He dies on page 7.
AK: He’s on page 36 and 38.
DB: But he’s dead.
AK: Oh, I see Ronan, The Accuser fighting with the Star Baby. It was a lot of fun to do all those great characters. And I had room. There is a rhythm to drawing a book. Usually, about the time I got to page 12 I’d finally start hitting my stride. Back then you had 17 or 20 story pages per book. By the time I was really warmed up, the story is over. So I was able to get into a good rhythm on this longer issue.
DB: Was there any feedback at the time?
AK: Only what you’d see on the letter pages. I don’t particularly recall hearing about anything.
DB: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
AK: Not hearing? It depends on what people are saying, of course. I was happy enough doing it and I wasn’t really worried. I didn’t expect a lot of wonderful feedback.

DB: The next issue you did, #23, was a short back-up, “What If Aunt May instead of her Nephew Peter had been Bitten by that Radioactive Spider?” It’s a very humorous thing.
AK: Yes, quite.
DB: I mean, how could it not be with that kind of a premise?
AK: Best of all, I got to ink it.
DB: You got to do everything on it bar write it.
AK: Yeah, Steve Skeates wrote it. Steve and I had known each other for quite a while at that point. We must have met in 1971 when I went to work at DC. We had a lot of fun in the early seventies. He was kind of a party guy back then. Mary Skrenes, Steve and I used to hang together, in semi-seedy, Hell’s Kitchen bars. I don’t know what he was on, maybe it was all natural, but he was a lot of fun, especially after a few beers. There was a commercial on television here for a brand of cigarette called ‘Larks.’ The premise of the commercial was that they drove around a motion picture camera on the back of a flat bed truck. And the truck sported a huge a sign on the side that read, “Show us your Larks!” As the truck went by, people would happily pull packets of Larks out of their pockets and brandish them at the camera, grinning. Steve really thought the commercial should be, “Show us your tits!” so [laughter] … that’s one reason I really loved Steve. Steve wrote tons of stuff for Dick Giordano at Charlton before he went to DC with Dick.

I recall an issue of Abbott and Costello (#1, Feb. 1968) comics that he wrote. In one story, Abbott and Costello were housepainters and they worked for a certain Mr Paintstein. I used to think that was so hysterical. It’s so obvious. But that’s storytelling. [laughter] I used to tease Steve about that one. He took it with great good grace.
DB: He was, and probably still is, a genuine talent.
AK: Yes. He is great. I loved his Aquaman. Best run ever.
DB: I think it was Starlin who told me that the only two people who truly came out of the Silver Age were Neal Adams and Steve Skeates.
AK: Okay, that’s a legitimate opinion.
DB: He felt that everyone else had already been in the industry before the Silver Age started or came in just after the end of the Golden Age.
AK: Well Steranko came in. Neal was certainly the first. But Skeates? That’s thanks to Dick Giordano being quite a bit more foresighted than most other editors. But Skeates and Denny O’Neil came in at about the same time. So you’d have throw Denny in there too, I guess. I dunno.
DB: Steve is not as well known as he should be.
AK: No, not at all. I don’t know why Skeates got out of it unless his work became unpopular with editors or he became discouraged. I don’t necessarily know what he’d have to be discouraged about. I’ve seen him fairly recently.
DB: The half page splash, who are those people?
AK: The guy on the left is supposed to be me. However page three, panel four, does that look familiar? Uncle Ben sleeping in the chair. That’s the Bunker home from “All In The Family” and I’ve cast Carroll O’Conner in the cameo role of Uncle Ben. They’re in the Bunker home because they live in Queens, so okay, Archie Bunker. The Parkers live in Forrest Hills and the Bunkers live in Rego Park, but they’re next to each other, so … [laughter]
DB: The commie menace in the newspaper.
AK: That was the tone of a lot of early Marvel Comics. Though, hardly ever in Spider-Man. I don’t know how it strikes you but I feel that the colouring on this job is a bit clearer than the other ones. It may not be, it might just be my ego talking, but I think this is a better colouring job than we’ve seen on a lot of other jobs.
DB: It looks like you had a lot of fun with the artwork. All the atoms floating about Aunt May’s head, Uncle Ben snoring away. Cottage cheese and mashed string beans for lunch.
AK: As I recall, Uncle Ben wasn’t mentioned at all in the script. Not a word. That’s why I put him in there, dozing wordlessly. In panel four on page two I was trying to get a Ditko feel on Flash Thompson and Peter Parker.
DB: It worked. The facial expressions remind me of Ditko.
AK: Thanks for that. Also the professor in the back with the blank eye-glasses. Nice clear storytelling, nice composition and everything. This was from a full script and the panels worked very nicely. I got to arrange the panel and place the balloons. Consequently, the lettering doesn’t impinge on the artwork and it’s all very clear.
DB: Why do letterers place the balloons over the artwork?
AK: It’s the Marvel Method. The script is written after the job is drawn. The writer indicates where he wants the letterer to place the copy. This story was done from a full script. I knew what the words were before I started drawing. So I placed the word balloons in first and then started drawing the pictures, instead of imposing the words on top of the pictures. If a writer is indicating where the balloons need to go, he doesn’t necessarily have the best sense, artistically, to know where to properly place the copy.
DB: So how would the process work when you’re doing everything? Do you pencil, then ink did you then colour and then insert the letters?
AK: This job?
DB: Yeah.

AK: Until I reach the inking stage I always pencil straight ahead. I don’t skip around. When I get the script, I mark it up to make sure I follow it properly. Then I break it down into properly sized/paced panels, in a thumbnail box on the side of the script. Then I’d transfer this to the Bristol board. In the blank panels, I’d lay in the copy in pencil. Then I letter and balloon the job in ink. Minus the balloon tails. Only then do I start to physically layout the story. Then I go back to page one and fully pencil the story. And then I ink it. That’s the ideal way to do it, for me. I don’t like balloons pasted on a page, or lettering pasted into a balloon. I think lettering on the page is a signature of a comic book. All one unit. On the next page, ‘Warren Savin’ the intrepid reporter, is Steve Skeates in a cameo. Warren Savin was a pen name that Skeates used. Again, there’s Archie Bunker in the last panel and the little panther statue on top of the TV is an actual prop from the show. That’s Walter Cronkite on the TV screen, because “All In The Family” was a CBS program.
DB: I like the look of the guard who’s crying in the street. [laughter]
AK: “I’ve been humiliated by a man in a frog suit!!” [laughter]

DB: Issue 25 saw you do a back-up, “The First Uni-Mind”. You inked Ron Wilson.
AK: I recall it. The first time I had inked Ron Wilson was back in high school. We put out a fanzine called “Our Thing.” Ron pencilled a two-pager called ‘Uranus’. Ron pencilled it and I wrote it, lettered it and inked it. I guess Uranus was a God of something or other. But I wrote one line in there, where an evil god is taunting Uranus and saying, “Your niggardly attempts will avail you naught,” or something like that. And Ron kind of gave me a look. Steve Mitchell was rolling on the floor. The entire conception and its ramifications were not apparent to me. Obviously, this was not clearly thought through by me.
DB: This story has some very Kirbyish art in it, but then Ron did tell me he was heavily influenced by Kirby.
AK: Oh yeah, but in a nice way.
DB: Ron is one of the few who manages to do Kirby without outright swiping.

DB: Now the next issue, #29, saw your story inked by Al Gordon and wrapped up by a great Michael Golden cover.


AK: That’s the one they just reprinted. It’s a nice splash page. I’m not as unhappy now as I was when I first saw the inking. I remember Al Gordon was working in a freelancers room, just past the receptionist in the Marvel offices. I went in there and I looked at what he was doing. I was so unhappy that I swore to myself I’d never speak to him again.
DB: And have you kept that promise and never spoken to him?
AK: Maybe. But only because I haven’t seen him since. I wouldn’t know him now if I saw him. I don’t even remember what he looks like.
DB: Al did a lot of stuff with Keith Giffen, I remember him from stuff like Ambush Bug.
AK: Ah, well I never got a chance to read any of that stuff. These first couple of pages look nice; there are some nice shots in there.
DB: You got to draw Iron Man’s original amour.

AK: Yeah, that was very exciting. On the second page there are two different versions of his armour. I was crazy about that version in the last panel on page two. I really liked that version. That was the Ditko amour.
DB: I always liked the face plate…
AK: …with the points. Yeah. And I liked the ribbing on the top of the head because they kind of grew out of his cowl by magnetic attraction.
DB: When you saw Al Gordon inking the pages were you tempted to start inking them yourself?
AK: I would have liked to. As I’ve always said, I’d have liked to have inked every assignment I got. That’s the ideal premise going into every job. But there was nothing I could do about it at that point, so I didn’t bother wanting that. The only time I got to re-ink anything was on a Mike Mignola job on The Defenders. There was nothing I could do about this job at that point, but hold a grudge. On page three, panel five, I like that panel. Was this villain based on that the guy from that bad Avengers Annual number #2?
DB: Yeah.
AK: That’s a Don Heck character design.
DB: Yep, from Annual #2 with that great John Buscema cover.
AK: On yeah, that cover was inked by George Russos. That panel is a very Don Heck pose. I met Don Heck once at a Marvel Christmas party. It was held in the last remaining Horn & Hardart Automat. I introduced myself to Heck and he said, “Oh sure!” like I was a real artist and he knew my stuff. It was one of the most brilliant moments of my life, that Don Heck actually said, “Oh sure!”
DB: He’s a much maligned artist, especially after the Comic Journal did the interview with Harlan Ellison where they called him the worst artist ever.
AK: It gets me off the hook.
DB: I don’t think you were the worst, nor do I think Don Heck was. I always point people towards those Dracula comics that Dell put out.
AK: I think Don Heck was a guy who was forced by the superhero market into doing stuff that he was not best suited for and he wasn’t crazy about doing. Not only that, Don Heck was a man from another era as far as art goes. In the late fifties, early sixties, he had a hip, flashy, commercial illustration style. So doing romances, westerns and that genre stuff; well he was very good at it. Don Heck was a stylist. Much like Mike Sekowsky, yet not as sophisticated as Sekowsky. I don’t think Heck’s heart was in the superhero stuff and I think after a while it got to show. I think there’s something in Don Heck’s artwork that struck other artists as being sloppy or careless and slapdash sometimes. Which can happen when your heart isn’t in it. I think Don Heck’s earlier, stylish work is a joy. I felt his DC stuff later was just wrong. It didn’t look like a DC comic.
DB: Page seven, panel three – are the two people based on anyone?
AK: That would be an attempt to draw my mother and father. It looks kinda like my folks.
DB: Your father there looks a little like Jim Mooney*.
AK: In that picture, yes. My father had that kind of a beard, a goatee. The big splash on the page before has a lot of nice stuff on it. I like the Kang figure on top of the page a lot.
DB: It’s big on the Zip-A-Tone.
AK: The problem with that Zip-A-Tone on the next page is that the colorist laid a dot pattern, a blue 20% dot over a black dot and it really turned into a moire mud pattern. Tom Palmer might have used the same Zip-A-Tone value but he would protect his zips by also colouring the job. On that face he’d never have muddied it up like that. It could have been better. Nobody else would notice though, probably.
DB: There’s Zip-A-Tone throughout the whole book. On page nine in the first panel there’s Zip everywhere.
AK: No, that’s just blue and yellow. Giant Man has a Y2 B2 on his face and Thor has B2 on the left side of his face.
DB: Only a colourist would know that. A few pages forward the Centurion has his superheroes on display.

(See if you can't spot Popeye on this page)
AK: I wish that I had been able to make that be more dynamic than it was. It is very static. There’s no focus on that page.
DB: Everyone is the same height.
AK: I used to draw boring pictures like this on giant bits of cardboard when I was a kid and colour them with crayons.
DB: On the bottom level you have the Fantastic Four with Dr Doom in the middle.
AK: Yeah, I wanted to show the good guys, not hide them behind the main villain. The poses are all the same, but okay, maybe that’s the way the bad guy arranged it. Oh, this guy is supposed to be an incarnation of Doom/Tut/Kang. I recognise the scene on the next page. That was a great issue of The Avengers. It might have been one of the first issues of The Avengers that I ever bought, I’m not sure, but I think it may have been. And that’s the rivet head Iron Man.
DB: When Thor finally comes back in that’s a strong looking panel.
AK: That is good. On the page before that, the Iron Man in the first panel? I think that’s a sensational first panel. I love it, and panel three, that’s good too. The villain is not good but the Iron Man is good. That story was okay.
DB: You did draw a good Thor.
AK: This is better than some of the other examples we’ve talked about.
DB: Thor saves the day here, but that’s it, no more superheroes.
AK: Poor guys.
DB: Which makes me wonder, they beat the bad guy but they don’t let the other heroes out of the box.
AK: Well they don’t say that they hadn’t and wouldn’t. I like my Giant Man in panel three, that’s a nice face.

DB: From this issue on the stories stopped being double sized and went back to regular page lengths. Issue #31 was 'What If There Was No Fantastic Four?'
AK: I just re-read that story this morning and I thought that Roger Stern did some good writing on it.
DB: The Kirby influences are certainly there.
AK: That’s more due to Frank Giacoia than me. You recognise Frank Giacoia’s influence. Looking at the credits, I notice that, except for Frank Giacoia, it’s the new generation. Rick Parker doing the lettering, Bob Sharen doing the colours…
DB: Bill Mantlo doing the plot, Roger Stern and Tom DeFalco editing. It’s like the new wave going on. So how did it feel re-doing the origin of the Fantastic Four?
AK: I like tracing Kirby. [laughter] Tracing Kirby is fun. But I think one of the few places I literally traced his work is in the splash panel where the flare goes off. Sometimes its helpful having a book open in front of you with real solid art to look at. Even if you’re not copying anything, just to have that inspirational material to refer to can help, instead of just sitting there drawing it, cold.
DB: The Thing was the lumpy Thing, not the well known rocky Thing.
AK: Right. It’s not my favourite version of Ben Grimm. My favourite version is Kirby’s from about issue #50, on.
DB: One thing that stands out for me in this issue revolved around the letters pages in future issues. People complained that the Thing going on a rampage wouldn’t prevent Peter Parker from becoming Spider-Man, Don Blake from becoming Thor, Tony Stark, Iron Man, Bruce Banner, the Hulk and the like.
AK: Well it would have at that point. Who’s to say that eventually something else might not have happened whereby they might have become heroes, but in this story they don’t.

DB: I like how you paid homage to the various artists who drew the characters in the first place. You drew a Ditko Peter Parker.
AK: Yes, well, that’s who was drawing Peter Parker at the time. On the next page look at Don Blake holding up the hammer. That’s a Jack Kirby Joe Sinnott face. From Journey Into Mystery #83. And that’s Jack Adler driving the cab.
DB: When the Thing destroys the Baxter Building, that’s very King Kong.
AK: That page composition looks very strange to me. That’s because the bottom half of the page was originally different. I’ve seen the original pencils to the lower half of that page very recently. They asked me to make a change.
DB: What was on it originally?

AK: I think they asked me to add the pilots parachuting out safely. Originally we didn’t have anything showing that the pilots were safe. That’s my guess, twenty six years after the fact. [laughter] I like the Reed Richards face on the bottom of page 14. That’s a very John Buscema-like Reed Richards.
DB: What do you make of the Sue Storm in the first panel of page 16?
AK: That looks like Joe Sinnott inking on a bad drawing. But I think that the Johnny Storm head is lovely in that panel.
DB: Being that it’s the Marvel universe the last man standing is the Thing.

AK: Yep. That figure of the Thing in panel five on page 17 is directly from FF #1.
DB: It’s a good stand alone story. The next issue your work appeared in you inked one character in one panel.

AK: I don’t remember that.
DB: ‘What If the Avengers had become the Pawns of Korvac?’ It was a great concept as each character was inked by a different artist. You inked the Badoon. Jack Abel inked the Avengers, Joe Rubenstein inked Captain America…
AK: Did Ron Wilson pencil?
DB: Greg LaRoque pencilled it.
AK: I don’t even remember that.

DB: Issue #34, ‘What if Howard the Duck Formed his Own Super-Team?’
AK: You see, I’ve done this cover before I got that commission piece. Avengers #16.
DB: it’s still a funny cover.
AK: My complaint about the cover is that there’s no focus on the cover. Nothing is big enough.
DB: One of the characters is one of Ant Man’s flying ants.
AK: Emma.
DB: You did another page in this as well.

AK: “What If Obnoxio The Clown Fought Crime?” and as Dick Tracy says in his panel there, “Who cares?” I asked a question and answered it too.
DB: You wrote, drew, lettered and did you colour that one as well?
AK: I think so. I’m very happy with the artwork on this page.
DB: You also managed to get Batman and Superman in it. Why does The Watcher have a clown head?
AK: They all have clown heads.
DB: The Watcher has a balloon head.
AK: That’s the character. It’s the original Watcher. Kirby fattened him up considerably over the years.

DB: The last ‘What If?’ you did was issue #38, and you managed to do the cover for it.
AK: Yes. That’s a nice cover. I don’t remember if the idea was mine or not. It is from my layout, though.
DB: The Kingpin is very much in the Frank Miller vein.
AK: Well, Frank was doing Daredevil at the time so that’s what I was going for. I loved what Frank was doing. A bunch of Marvel guys were having lunch at a coffee shop and Ralph Macchio, who was the editor, gave me the assignment. I think it was Jack Abel, Jim Salicrup, maybe Carl Potts and Ralph and me. And of course, I didn’t like Ralph all that much. I didn’t like the way he treated Jack Kirby, among other things. If you notice the credit box, it says Alan ‘King’ Kupperberg. I wrote that, but I thought Ralph would edit that out. You see, I used write, pencil, letter, ink and try and do anything on my jobs if I could. So whenever I came in Ralph would begin yelling, “The king! The king! The king is here! Bow to the king!” You know, big comedian. My attitude was, “Fuck you, asshole. What have you ever done, besides mock Jack Kirby?” So that’s why I put that in. But Ralphy left it in, he didn’t take it out.
DB: it’s an interesting concept.
AK: I think it’s one of the best stories I ever wrote. All the colour separations, I did that on the original artwork. I drew these splash panels as three separate pieces of art. I did a black plate, a blue plate and a red plate. They sort of accidentally overlapped on the space where the colour separations are, but you really can’t tell.
DB: The colouring on your story is completely at odds with the remainder of the book. How much of the Frank Miller stuff were you looking at the time?
AK: As much as there was. I felt free to do whatever I wanted to do with this job and I did, and I’m very happy with it. Page two I got Lucy and Desi and Fred Mertz on the giant Panavision screen. I really like the shot of the Black Widow, it came out really well. Again, it looks like Frank Miller but I didn’t copy anything of his, I just kept him in mind when I drew it. I was going for Frank Miller effects on this job, but my version of Frank Miller.
DB: You even have the same panel layouts and designs that Miller was doing at the time.
AK: Yes and it made Shooter crazy. Shooter didn’t like it. For instance, going back to the splash page. The first yellow caption box does not belong there. I don’t recall where I originally had it, but Shooter had it moved. I used a good bit of Zip-A-Tone on this job too, but, for instance, when I used it on page two, I didn’t put any colour over it.
DB: The background in the Black Widow panel is great.
AK: It’s totally literal. I drew it in black, but on a separate piece of paper.
DB: Page three, the close up of Matt Murdock with the shadowy horns is very impressive.
AK: If you look at the lower part of the face he’s kind of Kuberty. I guess I finally reached Kuberty. Again there were balloons and captions moved around by Shooter’s order.
DB: That is a Miller layout page.
AK: Milleresque. Kind of like Miller Lite. [laughter] Again Shooter hated the stuff. Inset panels, overlapping panels, cameo panels, floating captions. The caption at the bottom of the page does not belong there and wasn’t lettered by me. I think it was outside and to the left of the panel and Shooter said, “No, the readers won’t understand.”
DB: I like the Murdock figure with the cane.
AK: Yeah, that came off well. By that time I was getting the proportions right and I’d stopped making everyone so stubby. I might quarrel with an individual drawing in this job, but as a whole it doesn’t offend me. It looks like more mature work than any of the others we’ve talked about today.
DB: You have him standing in Clint Eastwood type poses.
AK: It’s called acting, which I think I can do on paper pretty well. Murdock is a stoic in this story. Eastwood is good for that.
DB: You have action going on there, you have Daredevil in costume.
AK: “Some inner sense told me, hey, let’s wear our costume today for the first time in thirty years.” [laughter] Yeah, there’s plenty of Frank Miller story telling here, alright. All the quick smash cutting back and forth. I think it worked out well.
DB: There’s another dancing man, only he’s on a chair.
AK: There’s a lot of stuff going on, it’s nice. I made decent use of negative space in this job. It’s got a lot of air to it and it’s not crowded.
DB: Page eight is great. The whole page is laid out well, very angular panels, the negative space…
AK: Getting to write the story allows me to design the artwork that goes with the story. A writer is trying to gets his own points in. Here I could get my points in and with my pictures.

DB: You aged the Black Widow well.
AK: She looks like an older, Slavic woman, but still an attractive person.
DB: Why was her hair coloured blonde and not red?
AK: This is an orange, YR2, solid yellow with a 20% red over it. Well, sometimes when you get older your hair colour fades, or turns white. I had my Aunt Phyllis in mind in particular.
DB: The next page, panel one and two…
AK: Nice, very nice. Good storytelling, yep, nice composition, it’s very swell.
DB: And you have the Kingpin.
AK: He could have been fatter in the first reveal shot.
DB: He’s old, he might have lost weight.
AK: That’s what I was thinking, that was my rationalisation. I think John Romita said that he thought the Kingpin should have been fatter, but he didn’t change it. I don’t remember if I just got lazy with those buildings behind the Kingpin or if I was trying to be, in this case, expressionistic.
DB: They fit in quite well with the story. This is some of your best storytelling.
AK: Thank you. I think this is just a dandy job. It’s a shame that the printing wasn’t better.
DB: It’d be nice if they reprint this story with better reproduction.
AK: Well maybe they’ll get to it. Maybe someday they’ll get there. The next page is nice too. The middle panel is nice and simple.
DB: You’re showing the actual blow as opposed to the follow through.
AK: Yes. I wanted it to appear as brutal as I could get away with. On the last page I like the panel that shows the Window’s face in shadow with her eye where his eye is supposed to be. I thought that was a very neat touch. If I’d been able to get a better sunrise effect in the last panel, with decent colours, then I’d have been happier.
DB: One thing that people probably don’t pick up on is that you redesigned Daredevils costume. The horns are larger.
AK: I don’t know if that was conscious or not.
DB: Your story really shines above the other two in this issue.
AK: I remember I felt that those other stories were kind of weak, compared to my story. As was the case in my own life, ‘What If?’ was often a training ground where you’d bring in the new guys. They dumped a lot of new inkers on me in there, too. Again, because my pencils, good, bad or indifferent, were very tight. There was definitely only one line to ink. Unlike, say, Ross Andru, where you could pick the line you wanted to ink. I drew a line and the editors figured that an inker could follow it. But these lines aren’t lines; they’re lines for interpretation, especially in layouts. I was expecting someone with a higher skill level than me to finish the stuff.

From 1971 until 1977, when I started at Marvel I had been inked, almost exclusively by Vinnie Colletta, Neal Adams, Dick Giordano, Jack Abel and Wallace Wood. Guys like that tend to steamroll the kinks out of weak material. I finally learned to fully pencil a job, to try and give specific line weights that I would like inked, especially if it’s for someone else to ink. When I fell into the hands of Joe Sinnott or Frank Springer or Jim Mooney or (oh boy) Frank Giacoia I was in very good shape. Rudy Nebres took some really crappy layouts from me and made them lovely. And Grey Morrow. Wow, he made me look like a star. But given the average run of inkers I’ve had, I considered Vinnie Colletta a very decent option. I preferred Vinnie to, say John Tartaglione or even Mike Esposito. I love Tartag and Mike, but I’m just talking about what is best for the product. I was closer to Vinnie, but I knew all those guys. I went to high school with Mike’s son, Mark. We ate lunch together every day.

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* Jim Mooney or Sydney Kupperberg - you decide:



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LINKS FOR FURTHER READING: Alan Kupperberg's official web-site. Plenty of articles, interviews and art on display. Alan is also avaliable for commissions, visit his site for more information and for contact details.

Sunday, April 29, 2007

Vinnie Colletta's Exit 'Conversation'

Vinnie Colletta. Much has been written about Vinnie in the years since his passing (1991), not all of it is true or accurate. Speak to a professional artist and more often than not they'll have an opinion on Vinnie. "He was a no talent, no good hack," they say, "a bum that ruined Jack Kirby's artwork by haphazard inking and shortcuts." In some regards they're right, he was a bit of a hack. He also indeed did take a lot of shortcuts in his work, in some cases he erased the pencils so he'd not have to ink them. Jack Kirby would draw detailed backgrounds only to see them simplified by Colletta. Yet there were other sides to Vinnie.

When I first spoke to Don Perlin he chastised me for chuckling at the mention of Vinnie's name and told me that, "Vinnie was a very nice guy and Vinnie could do great work." He then explained to me why Vinnie would take shortcuts so here's how I now understand it: Vinnie was the go-to man anywhere he worked. A job would arrive late, an inker would pull out at the last second and an editor would face the prospect of missing a deadline. Back in the day if a book missed a deadline then an entire month or more would pass before it'd appear. As companies were racing against time to get product out into a fiercely competitive marketplace missing a deadline wasn't an option. So the editor would call Vinnie and Vinnie would get the job done. He'd get it done over a weekend if need be. It'd look like crap but it would be there, on time, ready to be printed.

That's why Vinnie got so much work. Because he never missed a deadline and could produce fast work under the pump. Often when Vinnie had time (which was rare) he could produce some fine inking. Dave Simons also shared his memories of Vinnie with me a while back. "The funny thing about Vinnie is that I had the same opinion of him as what most people did," says Dave. "But Vinnie was a great guy. Personally I liked him a lot. He was one of these guys, he had the silver hair, he was always a sharp dresser and it was easy to see how people would think he was connected. To this day I don’t know if he really was or not, but he’d always have these stories to tell about some fashion model that he’d met. He loved to sit back and tell stories. He inked me on the Red Sonja and he came in with the pages and I happened to be up there and he was so proud of it, he thought it was one of the best jobs he’d done in years. I was sitting there thinking 'Oh God', and saying 'Oh, yeah, it’s great Vinnie'".

In 1978 Marvel decided to appoint Jim Shooter as Editor In Chief and in the following years he helped revitalise the company. Mention Shooters name and you'll also get very mixed results. Some people will tell you what an utter bastard he was, others will praise him. Much like Vinnie there's not a lot of middle ground. However during his time as Marvel EIC creators such as Frank Miller, Chris Claremont, John Byrne, Walt Simonson and many others emerged and were encouraged. However there was a downside to this - a lot of creators would leave Marvel for DC during Shooter's reign. Roy Thomas, Marv Wolfman, Len Wein, Steve Gerber - it's a huge list. Shooter also managed to personally alienated several people, such as George Perez, Jim Mooney and Gene Colan. In the mid 1980s Shooter was caught in the middle of a no win battle between Marvel and Jack Kirby regarding the return of Kirby's original artwork. The result was that Marvel lost as much top-line talent as it had originally nurtured, and those losses counted towards the end of Shooter's tenure. However by the time the mid '80s rolled around there was more than one person at Marvel plotting his demise by attempting to undermine his efforts.

It worked, in 1987 Shooter was sacked as EIC from Marvel. He then went on to take control of Valiant Comics and helped make that company a force before again being removed from that position under a cloud of controversy. From there it's been one failed company after another. Despite his best efforts and despite being linked with genuine talent Shooter remains a pariah, an outsider who's name is forever linked with failure. It's not a good legacy to carry and in hindsight it's hardly a fair one. Shooter had his faults, but he also had his talents. As a writer he wasn't that bad and his '70s Avengers run is still looked upon with fondness by those who read and enjoyed it. Be honest now: how many people love what Shooter's replacement Tom DeFalco did with the Fantastic Four during his tenure as Marvel EIC?

This brings us back to Vinnie Colletta. One thing that Vinnie also had that not many others in this industry had (or indeed still have) is loyalty. Shooter and Colletta had forged a friendship and that saw Vinnie given as much work as he wanted throughout Shooters time at Marvel. However once Shooter was gone Vinnie was left out in the cold. To your right is a scan of a letter that Vinnie sent to Marvel after Shooter was sacked (click on it for a larger, clearer view). In it, and I'll post the text at the end of this post*, Vinnie let's lose with the full force of his venom. By the time this letter was written, in late 1987, Vinnie had already decided that his career path and Marvel might be at odds with each other. His workload had been reduced and by 1989 the flow had stopped.

So what did happen? For a fair while now it's been accepted that Vinnie and Marvel parted ways over the above letter but there was clearly more going on behind the scenes, which brings us to the meat of this post - the conversation below.

Late last year I was approached by a person who will remain nameless by their own request. They told me that they had in their possession an unpublished, and indeed unheard since it was recorded, conversation with Vinnie Colletta done days after Shooter's sacking in 1987 in which Vinnie gives his version of the events. I was then asked if I would be interested in transcribing the tape with the view of putting it out there. I immediately lept at the opportunity and was given the following conditions: 1] the person handing me the tape would remain anonymous, and 2] the identity of the person on the tape who isn't Vinnie would also remain anonymous. I agreed (after all just how many interviews with Vinnie actually exist?) and the tape was sent (so don't ask who sent the tape or who's talking, make all the guesses you want, I'll neither confirm no deny any of them). There's been a few edits to the final transcript to remove anything that might identify the other person speaking but other than that this is pure Vinnie - his words haven't been altered. Personally I found it to be totally fascinating and it helps explain the events that led up to Vinnie sending his now (in)famous letter.

So, ten years after the event here it all is. Read, enjoy and, of course, feel free to make all the comments you want.

DISCLAIMER: (due to repeated comments/requests) Now I want to make it clear that it's obvious that this isn't an interview as such. It is a conversation that Vinnie himself originated to air his views and must be taken in that light. The views expressed in the conversation and in the letter are Vinnies, not mine, and I present them as historical artifacts of events that clearly still capture people's interest well after the fact. If anyone from that time wishes to come forward and present their own point of view about all of this, or wishes to have right of reply, then I'll have no problems presenting those views. Indeed you'll get the same amount of space and I'll not edit those views in any way, shape or form. Feel free to email me and we'll work something out.

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INTERVIEWER: Hello?
VINNIE COLLETTA: This is Vincent.
INT: Vincent. How are you doing?
VC: How are you doing?
INT: You know.
VC: Yeah, I know. I spoke to him the other night.
INT: Shooter’s back from L.A.?
VC: Yeah, but he hasn’t called me since. So what’s happening over there?
INT: I have no idea.
VC: Well…
INT: DeFalco is not Acting Editor In Chief; he is Editor-in-Chief.
VC: Yeah, that’s okay.
INT: Is it?
VC: Well, you see, with this bullshit of acting, okay, see you gotta understand one thing; they were stuck with this guy. The talks that I’ve had with Mike Hobson, I’ve had three talks, one lunch and another talk and then four hours in the bar. I knew that Tom was going to take over a long time ago. See the first time I spoke to him because I was trying to get Shooter and him in good graces you know. But it didn’t work because Jim wouldn’t go along with it, you understand? You understand?
INT: Not really.
VC: You see the thing is I sat with Mike…I never talked to you about this so I think I should. I sat with Mike & I said “Ahhh Mike,” well when I ran into him in the hall first of all I said to him “Mike, is there any way I can help?” he says ‘Yes”. He said “let’s go get a drink”. Okay?
INT: Yes.
VC: So we went out, we were there from 5.30 till 9.30-10 o’clock, talking.
INT: So he didn’t really want to get rid of Shooter?
VC: No. You see when you negotiate like this, you have to give up something, and you get back something.
INT: What did he want Shooter to give up?
VC: No, no, I gave up something. I said “Mike, look before we start, okay, I’m not here to praise Shooter, I’m here to see,” I said, “what he did was not acceptable.” I had to give him something, you know? I said, “Those memos – that is not acceptable, but you gotta understand he’s the type of a guy, that to get better books, he will do it to his mother. He is so interested in his books that if somebody in the advertising department doesn’t do it right he’s gonna yell at them, even though it’s not his turf.”
INT: Right.
VC: Okay? “Now, he does not understand,” remember, what I was trying to tell him was that there was no malice behind it, you understand?
INT: Yes.
VC: Okay. I said, “He does not understand corporate, how it operates, how everybody is in charge of their little turf and fuck the other guy.”
INT: Shooter understands that.
VC: No, No, no, I gotta make Hobson think that. I don’t want Hobson…
INT: Did Hobson buy that?
VC: Yes he did, he did, 100 %.
INT: Alright.
VC: So, I said “You gotta understand this, even though he said this to you, if you call him up 3 o’clock in the morning, that you were stuck somewhere, he’d come and get you and help you.” He says, “I know”. “So this is what we’re trying to figure out, like how to get everything nice again because, he did nothing because he dislikes you. He did nothing because he dislikes (Jim) Galton.”
INT: Shooter thinks Mike hates him.
VC: Well, after what he did to Mike, c’mon.
INT: Shooter was trying to get Mike fired or at least removed from Marvel comics. The goal wasn’t necessarily to get Mike fired but he did not want Mike in charge of the comics anymore.
VC: Well, whatever it was, but he told the people of California that Mike was a drunk.
INT: Mike Hobson is not a drunk!
VC: Will you stop this? I’m telling you what he said.
INT: Shooter wouldn’t say that.
VC: “He’s never there when he needs him,” “ He’s out on 3 hour lunches.” He cut Mike a pass.
INT: Not very sporting.
VC: Anyway, the point is…
INT: That’s not the point. That’s bullshit.
VC: What’s bullshit?
INT: Whether Hobson drinks at lunch, how long his lunches are. That’s not going to get anyone fired. Not a Vice President of publishing. It isn’t important if you drink or how long you take your lunch so long as you get your job done. That’s what counts.
VC: You don’t understand, you don’t understand. He made Mike and Galton look bad to the people in California.
INT: Alright.
VC: That’s what I’m getting at.
INT: I see.
VC: Alright. And by doing these things, he’s a part of it, okay? So I said, “Mike, you gotta forget this bullshit,” I said, “You’ll never replace Jim.” He said, “I know.” I says, “Forget the bullshit,” I said, “This is the best man, and I’ve been around longer than you, Mike, in this business. I’ve know them all, from Stan Lee to… Stan Lee is a big piece of shit.” I said. I said, “Now, this man is like a fucking messiah. Now, he’s got weird ways sometimes, but he’s the best man for the job. He’s a fucking computer.” He says, “Tell me about it,” He says, “That man knows everything.” I say, “Right. So we gotta fix this thing up. So tell me what you want me to do. Tell me what you want Jim to do.”
INT: What did Hobson say?
VC: He said, “I want you to see if Jim will sit down with me, promise me that he’ll change his ways. Okay? Try to get along better with the editors.” In other words, turn the other cheek, you understand?
INT: Yes.
VC: “And let me sit in on some of these meetings and get me more involved in it.” I say, “In other words, Mike,” I said, “Look. The reason you haven’t fired him now up to this point is, because you can’t fire him. The people in California won’t let you.” And he admitted it to me, he said, “You’re a smart person.” I said, “That’s right. But since all these guys (a group of editors) came in to lynch him that night, you’ve got enough ammunition now to go to them in California and say, ‘Look, we’re trying to keep him, but everybody, you know, they wanna lynch him,’ And see, you got a lot of ammunition and what do I have to do to keep you from using that ammunition?” He says, “Again, you’re a pretty smart guy,” and I said, “No, you can use this! You can get Jim fired tomorrow by going over there and telling them what happened.”
INT: So they would accept Shooter causing trouble with the higher ups, or dissatisfaction amongst the ranks, but they could not deal with both.
VC: Right. He says, “Get me Shooter, too.” So I went to Jim and I said, “Jim, look. I opened the door, now play the fucking game. Please. For me. For you. For the people who care for you in this place, not the scumbags, the people who care. Because if you go down the drain all of those who care for you will go down the drain with you.” I said, “Play the game. Say that you’re going to change, say okay, you’re going to make an effort to bring them all up.”
INT: What did Shooter say?
VC: “Nope. No, I will not change because what I do is right.” I say, “Jim, I know, okay? Let’s say I agree with you, but until you…”
INT: [interrupts] Shooter did not do everything right.
VC: What?
INT: He obviously did not do everything right.
VC: But he wouldn’t admit that. So I said, “Jim…”
INT: [interrupts] He knows what he did wrong.
VC: He will not admit it. I said, “Jim, look, until you get your new contract, until you’ve started back again you’ve got to do this for me,” and he said, “No.” I said, “Look, I’ve got another meeting with Hobson, I’m going to lunch with him in a couple of days. Now I want a good answer from you.” He says, “They’re lying.” I say, “Jim, they don’t want to get rid of you.”
INT: How is Shooter going to make nice to Higgins and Bob Harras?
VC: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. What matters is to get back on the saddle and then get rid of these bastards.
INT: The point is that Shooter had already gone over their heads to New World. That was fact, right?
VC: They’re gonna forget that.
INT: Alright. But now he has dissatisfaction amongst the ranks. You know how hard it is to change public opinion?
VC: No, no…the only reason, and let me tell you this, the only reason the ranks did what they did is because he was against the ropes and they know it. In fact they were planning another knockout blow. You didn’t know this did you?
INT: I think I did.
VC: Alright…
INT: Do you want to know how I knew?
VC: …I told Jim. Go ahead.
INT: I didn’t really know. The day before they fired Shooter I saw Bob Harras and Mike Higgins. And they were just sitting back, very smug and self-satisfied. But they didn’t think it was going to happen the next day. They were just expecting his contract not to be renewed. And whether they were planning another event or not, they were very satisfied.
VC: I was told they were, by somebody.
INT: But there was nothing to plan on.
VC: No, no, they were going to come in again…
INT: And ask for what?
VC: …in a big bunch….
INT: And ask for what?
VC: …and ask Mike either they fired him or they’d quit.
INT: Big deal.
VC: But don’t you understand, Mike is looking for ammunition. And they were giving it to him. Okay, under normal circumstances Mike might have said ‘Get lost,’ but he was looking for this. Galton was looking for it. They wanted a reason to fire the guy.
INT: Right, but they didn’t want to fire him?
VC: No. Because of California.
INT: Right.
VC: Okay. Not because they like him. So, that’s what happened. So I went to lunch with Mike and he said, “What did he say?” I don’t want to tell him the truth. I say, “Mike, we’re still talking about it.” He says, “Well, we gotta do something. We can’t stay like this.” So here’s a man who was willing to talk to me for four hours, here’s a man who was willing to go to lunch with me, here’s a man who was willing to see me again…
INT: Because New World didn’t want to fire him?
VC: Right. They didn’t want to fire him.
INT: Then there’s no real interest on Mike’s part. He was only doing it because he felt he had to.
VC: It doesn’t matter!! What matters is he could have got away with it. So, I went back to Jim and I said, “Jim, please. This is me. These bastards are all lying, play the game a little bit because I know that Tom DeFalco is waiting in the wings.” “No, no, no, Tom said he would never…”
INT: [interrupting] DeFalco wasn’t “waiting in the wings.” Obviously he wasn’t going to turn it down.
VC: No, but he was telling everybody he wasn’t going to take it.
INT: Oh, right.
VC: Ahhhhhhh! Listen to what I’m saying.
INT: I would have done the same thing. So would you.
VC: He knew he was getting this job when he rode out to California with Mike. And I told this to Jim. Listen, I never say anything unless I have perfect proof.
INT: Wait a minute, Vin. When were they in California with Mike? Last summer?
VC: No. The last time they were out in California …
INT: DeFalco wasn’t there.
VC: No, Tom was someplace else. And he met with Hobson when they went on that trip to California. Mike went to California. This was about four months, five months ago. This is right after the letters. And the reason also that I know is, when I first talked to Mike I said to him, “Mike, look, one of the reasons why the editors and everyone is shitting in their pants about Shooter being fired is because, who will take his place? Some of them couldn’t care less, they’re just worried about who’s gonna take over.” I says…
INT: [shouts] NO! A few of them were rabble-rousing…
VC: [shouts] HEY C’MON!! I’m telling you what I said!! Don’t argue with me!
INT: And the people that were up against him, half of them were worried about their jobs…
VC: [shouts] RIGHT!
INT: …the other half were just followers.
VC: Right. Hey, don’t argue with me, because let me tell you something. Mike Hobson said I did a terrific job and nobody else would even put their foot out for this guy. He says, “Let me tell you, they respect you for that.” Not one of his friends came forward so don’t tell me…Shooter knows I did a good job. So, I’m negotiating at the same time I’m not sticking up for Shooter. In other words, to make him trust me.
INT: Right.
VC: Okay, so. I said to him, I says, “There were talks of Wolfman coming back.” He says, “Ha ha, forget it.” I said, “There were talks of this guy coming back.” “Forget it.” I said, “Well, what they are afraid of, a little bit, is that DeFalco will take over.” He says, “Why?” “He’s a known prick,” I said. “Weelll he’s mellowed…” Then I knew, okay?
INT: Yes.
VC: Then I knew. Then I knew that DeFalco was already in.
INT: A lot of people don’t like DeFalco.
VC: That’s right.
INT: I don’t know who they are, but I know a few don’t like him.
VC: Awwww, a lot of them. So now I went back to Shooter. Now I know that Shooter is going to lose the game because Shooter won’t play ball.
INT: Right.
VC: Now I’m going to tell you something and I want you to keep it to yourself. Not even to Jim, because Jim and I discussed it already and he understands and he’s says, “You’re right.” I have to get them to be afraid of Shooter, ‘coz I know I lost getting him his job back. I lost it because Jim will not co-operate, okay?
INT: Right. Although, on the day Shooter said he got fired, I understand that he said, “Oh, I’ll be a good boy now.”
VC: No, it was too late. Too late.
INT: I know.
VC: So now I knew I had to save something for him so you know what I did?
INT: What?
VC: I said, “Mike, don’t feel sorry for Shooter.” He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “He’s got two big offers,” he says, “Really?” I said, “That’s right.” He said, “How do you know?” I said, “Mike, I’ll tell you this, I swear on my kids. He’ll be starting a new company for new people,” and then I told him, I says, “And then there’s a third one,” I say, “(Robert, ‘Bobby’) Sarnoff. (son of ‘General’ David Sarnoff, chairman of RCA) He said to me he’ll call me on the phone because he knows I’m good friends with him and he said, ‘I’d like to chat with Jim.’” He said, “Now I know how you’re not lying, because every time I talk to Sarnoff he uses that word ‘chat’”. So I said “Let me tell you something. You fired this guy; the people in California are going to be pissed off because you’ll have another company for competition.” He says, “Something tells me you’re not lying,” I say, “No, I don’t lie. I never lie.”
INT: So that is why New World made him an offer.
VC: That’s right.
INT: I heard that Shooter said that the offer that Galton made him was a bogus offer and New World made him a better offer.
VC: That’s right. So when I spoke to Jim the other day I said, “Remember what I said?” and he said, “That’s right, that’s why he did it.” “It doesn’t matter why they did it, Jim, it doesn’t matter, but I scared them.” They were afraid, because now New World, he wants to kill DC. They want to bury everybody. And can you imagine if Jim left there and a new company started with Jim? California will be pissed off at Galton and at Hobson. That’s why they made him an offer. That’s between me and you. If Jim tells you that it was because of what I did then fine, but I don’t want you to say anything. So that’s where it’s at now.
INT: What kind of an offer did New World make?
VC: The same thing only bigger. He’d have his own company, his own space, his own people, whatever. I don’t know, he didn’t have time to tell me too much.
INT: Is he going to think about it?
VC: He told me he’s thinking over a few offers, but I told him, “If you’re going to take anything, then take this one. For the simple reason that if you go over to a new company, distributing, this, that, it might fold in no time, you don’t know.” I says, “Here, at least, you got Marvel behind you, but one thing: don’t take space in the building. You don’t wanna see these bastards again.” So this is the way I think, so that’s what we’re going to talk about. So don’t even tell him that we discussed anything, because I just wanted you to feel better about it. That’s why I’m calling. And if you tell him, he’ll say, ‘what the hell are you doing discussing these things behind my back?’
INT: Do you tell him that you are the only friend he has?
VC: I didn’t say that.
INT: Don’t you tell Shooter that? And that everyone hates him?
VC: I didn’t say that.
INT: No?
VC: No. I say I’m the only one who went up there. That’s all. Bob Layton tried to get people to back him and they all turned him down. Including JR. Did you know that?
INT: No.
VC: Right. Shooter knows that because Bob told him. I’ve tried to get people. I’ve tried to get people…
INT: Even if JR went, even if Layton went, even if…
VC: [interrupting] That is not the point.
INT: …they’d just have said, “Of course, they’re Shooter’s friends.”
VC: No, that is not the point. The point is that they said no. That is the point. That’s the difference.
INT: Did you ask anyone to back you and go with you?
VC: Yes.
INT: Did they turn you down?
VC: Every one of them.
INT: Wow.
VC: Including Jim Owsley. Everybody. So then I called Bob (Layton) and said forget about getting people because if only two or three people go up there, then it’s no good. Because Bob and I thought if we did this, hundreds of letters would pour in, right? Nobody. And I don’t say things like, “I’m his only friend.” So don’t say that. I said I’m the only one who went in there and Mike even said it. He said, “Where’s all his friends?” And he says, “Let me tell you, I respect you for doing what you’re doing.” That’s all. That’s all I said. I know he’s got friends, come on. Robbie in the stat room loves him. Don Perlin loves him. Come on! I’m not stupid. I never said that.
INT: All these people, like Ann (Nocenti) and Bob Harras and Mike Higgins, people that had their own intelligence, skills and abilities when they came to Marvel, but it was Shooter who helped them use their talent and gave them positions and authority…
VC: They’re ingrates. They’re fucking cheap ingrates. Period!
INT: I’m not saying that Ann couldn’t have gone to any other company, publishing or whatever and started there…
VC: You don’t know if she could have.
INT: Ann’s very smart, very talented and creative. So she could have gone to any company and worked her way up. But it happened at Marvel and who did it for her? Shooter. She had her own skills and abilities and if she didn’t have them, Shooter would not have promoted her.
VC: He gave her big, money making books. She got a $15,000 incentive last year. He gave her an eleven percent raise.
INT: Right. So how come?
VC: So she winds up making over $60,000.
INT: Not to mention her own freelance writing…
VC: That’s right. So how do you do that to the guy who opened the door for you?
INT: I don’t know. How could you do that?
VC: Because they’re all ingrates. They’re all ingrates.
INT: Bob Harras was nothing when he came to Marvel. He worked at Macys.
VC: Right. Do you know what happened when I went in to see Bob Harras?
INT: No.
VC: After they marched through Shooter, the next day I went in to see Bob. I said, “You know, you’ve gotta remember what Shooter did. Remember all the good things, okay? Now, I know you guys were pissed off at him, maybe you were right. I don’t think it was right the way you did it, like a lynch mob, but maybe it would be nice if you went in there and said, ‘Look, Jim, I’m sorry we did it this way but we wanted to get a point across.’” They practically threw me out of their office.
INT: Really?
VC: I swear to God. Ask Larry (Hama), he was right next to me. He (Bob) said, “You get outta here! He got what he deserved and he’s gonna get more!” He had both of them and you know who was more vicious, well both were vicious and I backed out of that office. I backed outta there. So what I’m saying is, now I don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t know what it’s all about. I don’t like to see Jim come in there and get his stuff out. I’d like to see him come in there, maybe at 10 o’clock or so and take some of his stuff. I’m going to suggest this to him. I don’t want him to come in there and everybody laughs up their sleeve.
INT: It doesn’t matter. He’s still going to have to make at least one business hour appearance to talk to personnel and sign final papers and wrap up his affairs with Marvel.
VC: What? Upstairs?
INT: Yeah.
VC: I’m talking about downstairs.
INT: I see.
VC: That’s fine. That’s what I mean. I’m going to suggest that to him because I don’t like to see him ridiculed and these bastards, they’re all like dancing in the aisle from what I hear.
INT: I hear there’s a little smirking going on. And I understand that the week before, they burned something. They burned Shooter in effigy or something like that.
VC: You know, that’s sickening. That’s sickening.
INT: Did he know it was going to be on Wednesday?
VC: No. In fact…
INT: Most people figured it was going to be in June, when his contract expired.
VC: Right. See, what happened, he did another bad thing. He was waiting to see what was going to happen, and don’t say anything about this either. Like I said, the only reason I’m opening up to you is because I know you. I said, “Jim, you’re on pins and needles, you don’t know what’s going to happen,” because Jim listens to me because I’m very objective with him. When I say objective, he was going to fire Tom last year. You didn’t know that did you?
INT: I did not!
VC: Right. And I talked him out of it.
INT: Why would he fire Tom?
VC: Because Tom was jumping on Owsley’s ass and being a bastard, because he’s an evil person and he wouldn’t stop.
INT: I’ve heard another story and I’m really worried about this Tom and Sue (DeFalco’s assistant/lover) business.
VC: Forget this, they’re done.
INT: The problem there will affect what’s going on there. One can see a whole bunch of domestic squabbles going on.
VC: Well anyway. So I said to him, “Here’s what you do Jim, here’s what I’d do. I would go up to Galton tomorrow and say, ‘Okay Jim, my contract is coming up, let’s discuss it’” And then he’s either gotta shit or get off the pot. He’s gotta say that there’ll be no contract, is there?
INT: Is that what Shooter did?
VC: Nope. So he agreed, he said, “You’re right. That’s a good thing to do,” I says, “Then, if you do that, the man’ll say, ‘There’ll be no contract unless you change your ways’”. It’ll be face-to-face. Or he’ll say, “I’m sorry, there will not be any contract, you’re through.” He said it’s a good idea. The next day we had dinner again, and it was on a Saturday and I picked him up in New York because I usually go on weekends and we go to dinner, and I said, “Well, did you do it?” and he said, “No. I got a better idea. I’m going to call the lawyer in California and ask him for a contract.” New World Pictures. I said, “Jim, don’t do that! Don’t do that! You’re throwing salt into the wound! You’re going over this guys head again!” “Nope, nope, I talked to the guy, he sounds like a nice guy…” “Don’t trust him!”
INT: He’s Hollywood, don’t trust him.
VC: So what did he do Monday? He calls up the guy and says to the guy, “Who do I turn to for a contract?” He says, “Me! I’m the lawyer. I’ll get back to you.” So what happens is that the guy tells Rami, Rami tells Galton and says, “Hey, Shooter called us for a contract.” Comes Wednesday he gets fired. Understand?
INT: Yeah. Was it just Galton up there or were there other people in there with him?
VC: I have no idea because I haven’t talked to Jim except for on the phone. He called me on the beeper…
INT: Yeah.
VC: …and I read the beeper and it said, “I’ve been fired”. Jesus Christ! He usually calls me on the beeper because he gets me anywhere I am. He calls me on the beeper and says, “I’ve been fired,” I nearly had a heart attack and I called him straight back. The only thing I can do to stand by him is give him sound advice because sometimes when you’re in the middle you don’t see the truth, you know?
INT: I heard that Higgins went to Hobson right after he and Shooter had it out the first time, then I heard that Higgins was with Dorothy Marcus and Jackie Green of personnel right after that.
VC: Well, you know. Look at me; I’m on everybody’s shit list.
INT: Yeah. You’ve had years of practice.
VC: I know, I know. Let me tell you, I did what anybody should do to someone who was good to me.
INT: The fact that Bob (Layton) didn’t go because he and Mike Hobson have at least a friendly relationship, even while he was a drunk, even while he was a big drunk, I don’t think Hobson ever said to Shooter, “Get rid of Bob.” The fact that Bob would at least go and talk to…
VC: …I’m not questioning that. I not questioning that. Hobson said it to me. He said, “I respect you, you’re the only person who’s at least come forward to try to do something.” You see, the only people Hobson had were the ones who were against him. Never anyone that was with him. So what I’m trying to say is that I don’t know how deep DeFalco was in on this. I have no idea and I’m making no accusations. All I know is that…
INT: I suspect that DeFalco said that if Jim left, he would not immediately pack up his bags and exit behind him.
VC: What?
INT: I think he agreed that if Jim left, he would be willing to stay in charge for a period of time.
VC: Nah, he’s full of it…let me tell you, he’s got the floor plans of that office planned out for a long time. All I can tell you is this. Number one: I’m on the shit-list.
INT: I don’t know about that.
VC: Why not?
INT: Because you’re an artist. Perhaps he likes you, perhaps he doesn’t. But I don’t believe he’s going to stop you from getting work. The editors who have been giving you work, will still give you work. Those who went out of their way to please Shooter and give you work probably won’t give you work anymore.
VC: No, nobody did that.
INT: Okay.
VC: I only took books that were late and nobody else would. I just did a Justice in six days! They had nobody else to do it.
INT: Right.
VC: I’m doing the Spider-Man because each Spider-Man has two or three guys on it. Why? Because you think he likes me? I’m doing the annual because nobody else could do it in the amount of time and everybody fell down on the job and I wound up with it.
INT: You’re inking the Spider-Man Annual with the wedding?
VC: That’s right!
INT: You know the guy who designed the wedding dress? Willi Smith?
VC: Yeah.
INT: He just died.
VC: Oh God.
INT: Yeah, thirty nine years old and he just died. And they mention Mary Jane Watson and the wedding in the obituary.
VC: Yeah, because Mark gave me that. He said, “I know all the work you get is because they need you.” I said, “You know, I’ve never had books of my own.”
INT: You were the regular inker on plenty of books (The Mighty Thor, Superman’s Pal Jimmy Olsen, The New Gods, The Forever People, Mister Miracle, etc.,).
VC: No, never. Never! Only one, because it was a girl book at the beginning.
INT: Wow! You do great girls.
VC: Never was I on a regular book. Only when they couldn’t get somebody to do it. In other words when I got the job, three guys turned it down already. You understand what I’m saying?
INT: Yes. Well, I don’t think that’s going to change then, so you probably don’t have anything to worry about there.
VC: We’ll see.
INT: You know the editors just trying to kiss ass. They’re trying to play up to DeFalco. The two of you should go out to lunch and talk, and work out whatever you have to work out…
VC: No, no way! And I’m not taking him out to lunch unless he asks me to lunch.
INT: Don’t take him out. He’ll take you out.
VC: Only if he asks me. Let me tell you something. I don’t…I didn’t want that. In fact I might side-step him. I’m not going to go and confront him. No way!
INT: You could stop by and see him and shake the man’s hand.
VC: No, I will not!
INT: Oh, stop being an idiot, Vin.
VC: I will not.
INT: You should tell DeFalco that you hope that whatever it is that he doesn’t like about you, you can work it out, or something like that. You just need to get together with him for a while.
VC: (When I was asked) I said, “I dunno, the guy doesn’t like me, so we’ll see what happens.” That’s all I said. That’s all I said. I didn’t say anymore than that because that’s the last guy, okay. He hates my guts…
INT: Why does DeFalco hate your guts?
VC: Don’t you know what I did?
INT: No.
VC: When Jim gave him the job of Executive Editor, before that, Jim took me to dinner. He said, “Listen. I need an Executive Editor and Tom has been asking me for it, but I want to talk to you first. What do you think of the idea?” I said, “Well, Jim, look, you’re the best guy I’ve ever seen in this business. You’ve got your hand in your pocket all the time to help people and you waver sometimes, but your heart is right there. If somebody breaks a leg then you go and give them money to get it fixed. Tom is not a well liked person. Now, you need an extension of yourself as an assistant. You don’t want somebody doing the opposite of what you do.” He said, “You’re right, I was afraid of that.” He says, “I’ll be right back,” he went to the bathroom, came back and said, “The reason I wanted to talk to you is that I’m afraid of putting Tom there. I’m asking you to be my Executive Editor.” Okay? He asked me to be his Executive Editor. I said, “Jim, if you pick Tom, you’re making a mistake. If you put me there you’re making a bigger mistake. I’m not into that. And not only that these editors aren’t going to accept me.” “No, no no, you’re going to be my Executive Editor.” This was on a Friday. “Monday I’m talking to Mike and that’s it.” I said, “No, I don’t want the job. Please, I’m begging you, I don’t want the job. I can’t take nine-to-five, that’s why I’m a freelancer.” No, I need you.” Saturday he called me twice. Sunday he called me twice and I kept saying, “No. Please Jim, I can’t.” He said, “Alright.” And he made Tom the Executive Editor. So then, after he made him Executive Editor, I got a call from Danny Krespi, he said, “Oh Vinnie, today’s not a good day at Marvel.” I said, “What do you mean? Danny, what are you talking about?” He said, “It was announced today that Tom was going to be the Executive Editor and everyone is very gloomy because he’s not liked.” I said, “Oh, don’t worry about it. Jim’ll straighten him out,” so now Jim called me on a Tuesday and says, “Would you do me a favor?” I said, “Sure.” He said, “Will you take Tom out to lunch and explain to him what people think of him, to straighten him out,” you know, and on and on. I said, “Why the fuck can’t you do that yourself?” He says, “No, no, please do that for me.” He fixed the lunch up for us, so we went to lunch and I said, “Look, Tom, sometimes we don’t realize what we do. Now Jim thinks an awful lot of you to give you this job and Jim is a wonderful man. He’s well liked, especially by the workers.”
INT: At one time.
VC: Right. I don’t mean the editors, I mean the workers around the place.
INT: It’s true. I understand that the production department is really upset.
VC: That’s right
INT: Most of them weren’t hired by Shooter or Danny, they were hired by Anita.
VC: So I said, “Now, you’ve got a very bad reputation for being, you know, not such a nice guy. You gotta change it, because you’ve got a good job now and anything you do reflects on Jim.”
INT: You think he’s changed?
VC: Noooo, worse.
INT: That’s bad.
VC: No, but Shooter knew, wait a minute, let me finish. So he says, “You trying to tell me I’m a prick?”
INT: [laughs].
VC: I says, “Tom, listen, I’m not here to tell you’re a prick. I’m here because I was asked to take you to lunch and to talk to you because I know you. If you are after somebody, you won’t stop until they’re fired. All you’re doing is firing and talking like you’re going to fire them and this and that, and you’ve got to stop that because now everything reflects on Jim.” So we went upstairs and he ran into Jim and, “What did you do? You sicc’ed him onto me! You sicc’ed him onto me!” So what happened was that Jim said to me, “Boy, you were really rough on him.” And I said, “Hey, you wanted him to know the truth, so I gave it to him.” Now, ever since that time, he’s hated my guts. Not only that, but Jim, at least twenty times. He’s said to me, “Vince, you were right about Tom.”
INT: Yeah, but he and Tom have become good friends.
VC: Yes! Yes! In fact only last month he said, “You were always right about Tom.” So in other words I’m always very objective. So when he was after Owsley, he took me and Owsley to dinner, Jim did, and he’d fired Owsley when Jim wasn’t around…
INT: DeFalco didn’t fire Owsley.
VC: He went in and scared him so much the guy couldn’t work, okay?
INT: That’s true. I heard there was a month where he could hardly work at all.**
VC: What happened, I talks to Shooter and I says, “Shooter, Owsley looks up to you. He wears a tie because you wear a tie. He tells me he owes you everything. If you’re going to fire him, then you fire him yourself.” So he hired him back. So then Tom kept bringing stories about Owsley, kept bringing stories about me, unsubstantiated stories, so Jim says, “Look, I don’t wanna hear that shit anymore. You’re always making up stories because you want to get even with guys, okay? Now stop it.” So he thought he’d talked to him. Next day he came in and Tom says, “Hey, I got a way to get Owsley now. We give him lousy books, we’ll see that he does bad and then we’ll fire him.” And Jim says to me, “Vinnie, I can’t believe this guy. Right after I talk to him, he comes in and is giving me ideas on how to get even with Owsley. I can’t believe this guy! I can’t take him anymore, I gotta get rid of him.” I says, “Jim, look. You’re making a mistake getting rid of him.” I says, “Jim, don’t fire Tom. Talk to him, because if you get another guy, it’s going to look bad that you fired your number one guy. Talk to him. Not only that, but if you get another guy you’re going to have to go through the whole thing of teaching him again.” He says, “You’re telling me not to fire him? Here’s a guy who’s after your ass all the time!” I say, “I’m being very objective. I’m telling you this for your own good. If you fire him it’s gonna look bad, number one, and number two, you don’t know who you’re gonna get and you’re gonna waste a lot of time teaching him.” So that’s why he kept him. So since then, Tom has never, ever liked me.
INT: Hmm.
VC: But I didn’t do anything.
INT: We’ll see how it goes.
VC: But I didn’t do anything to him. All I did was say, look, be a nice kid because this man likes you and gave you a job to do, so don’t, because it reflects on him. Of course, he doesn’t like the idea that I was offered the job and turned it down. He didn’t like the idea that the reason he was there was because I had turned it down. But I turned it down because, first of all, I’m honest, I didn’t think I could do the job. Number two, what do I know about writing? I don’t wanna know about that. I just wanna do freelance. Somebody else would have jumped at it, but I said no. I said, “Jim, your editors are never going to accept…” “Oh, I don’t care about my editors.” “No, no, no,” I says, “how can they come to Vince Colletta, the hack? How could they come to Vince Colletta and look up to Vince Colletta?”, in an area of writing which I knew nothing about. I said, “Please, I don’t even wanna be considered for the job.” So this is why Tom has this thing. You could ask Jim this, before this blow up, before he wrote the letter to California, before the company was sold, I said to Jim, “Jim, I don’t like this idea of me and Tom being on the outs all the time. I wanna be friends with him. Why don’t you invite him to dinner, the three of us, and we’ll go right in and discuss it.” He said, “Good idea.” It never happened. I don’t know why. Either he asked him and Tom said no, I don’t know. But then again I said, “Jim, let’s bring him to Jersey and, you know, I want to be friends with the guy; I don’t like going in and not saying hello.” He says, “Okay,” and again it didn’t happen. Now this is the guy, and I wasn’t trying to kiss Tom’s ass, this was before anything happened, so if I did it now, well, now I don’t wanna do it.
INT: How does Shooter feel about Tom staying on?
VC: He doesn’t say much, but he feels there was some sort of betrayal.
INT: Is Shooter going to set up shop in California?
VC: No, I don’t think he’s going to do it in California.
INT: He might.
VC: He might. But what I’m saying is everything is here, you know? All the businesses are here. You understand?
INT: True.
VC: All the artists are here, but anyway, as far as what my future is there at Marvel I don’t know. I’m going to play it day by day. I’m not going to kiss anybody’s ass, if they send it (work) to me, fine. If they don’t, you know.

----------------------------------
NOTES:

Thanks to Alan Kupperberg for allowing me to use his drawing of Vinnie Colletta as it appeared in the book Streetwise (TwoMorrows) when I couldn't find a clear enough photo.

* This is the text of Vinnie's letter as he wrote it, with original spelling and grammer intact:



Marvel Editor-

You are the droppings of the creative world. You were destined to float the cesspool till urine logged and finally sink to the bottom with the rest of the shit but along came Jim Shooter who rolled up his sleeves and rescued you.

He gave you a title, respectability, power and even a credit card that you used and abused. He made you the highest payed Editors in the history of the business. He protected you against all that would tamper with your rights, your power and your pocketbook.

He backed you against all Prima Donna free lancers no matter how big. his pockets were always open to you. No cry of help was too small for him to turn his back on.

As heard in the "Brass: section of the company. "He never asked for anything for himself.always for his men."

The roof over your head, the clothes on your back, the car you drive and the trinkets you buy for your blind wives and girlfriends you owe to the Pittsburgh kid.

For all he did for you.you repayed him by attacking him like a pack of yellow, prickless faggots. Ripping away his flesh from his body and laughing and pounding your chest like conquering ghouls and long after his bones were dry you continued to pour salt on them to squeeze every ounce of pain out of him.

Not the slightest whimper or cry or tear came out of this man. With you still biting at his ankles, he put on his coat and walked away. Displaying more class and poise in defeat than all of you did in victory. Jesus had one Judas. Jim had many, those that speared him and worse, those that watched.

I stuck by him and for that you've nailed me on the same cross. I thank you for that. It's an honor to be crucified with Jim Shooter.a man who none of you will ever be.

Vince Colletta


** Christopher Priest, aka Jim Owsley, has written about his tenure at Marvel here. Priest's account is one of the more graphic and touching around the place and is more than worth the time it takes to read.

Saturday, March 10, 2007

Captain America, R.I.P? I Don't Think So...

Call me a doubter, but I've seen this before. The most recent issue of Captain America has the beloved character gunned down on the steps of a court-house, seemingly assassinated he's now dead. Forever. Finito. The book is generating a lot of interest, both in the comic book world and also in the mainstream media.

Or is he? It's not like this stunt is anything new is it?

You see back in the day Jim Steranko also 'killed' Captain America. In 1969 Steranko co-wrote and penciled three of the best issues of Captain America that you're likely to see. The second issue of that groundbreaking run, issue #111, saw the character shot as he lept into the ocean, a bullet riddled mask confirmed the horrid truth - he was dead. He'd met his maker. The next issue that followed, #113, Steranko's final, saw Captain America's funeral, attended by the rest of the Avengers. Even the titles of the stories were great - #11 was titled 'Tomorrow You Live Tonight I Die!' and #113 was the great 'The Strange Death Of Captain America'. To my eyes Steranko rarely got better than this (for those wanting to know, #112 was a fill-in issue, a Stan Lee-Jack Kirby origin/overview issue done over a weekend when Steranko supposedly missed his deadline. I've always wondered if Steranko didn't miss that deadline on purpose just to extend the suspense and general agony out for as long as he could. The fill-in by Lee & Kirby was nothing to sneeze at and you'd never have guessed that Kirby did it in about three days. Oh, and for the record, Cap was created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby waaay back when in 1941). It was fairly heady stuff for a young man, and alongside the imaginary death of Superman (in Superman #149, Nov, 1961) it had a great impact upon many a reader.

But Captain America wasn't really dead was he?

Of course he wasn't dead. He was very much alive. So was Superman for that matter. At least DC explained that one away as being an imaginary story, thus it never happened, but then to quote someone better than me, aren't all the stories imaginary? So why did Captain America die? To bring his assassins out in the open and to establish a new identity, or, more to the point, to bring his old identity back to the secret status (everyone knew Cap was Steve Rogers). How did he die? He threw a 'rubberized figure' dressed up as himself into a bay, the figure was riddled with gunfire as it fell. Was it an effective story? Yep. Did it confuse me as a child? You better believe it. Still the double page spread of Cap 'returning' in the cemetery and the splash page two pages later was some of the best work Steranko ever did.

(Jean Grey. The first of her many deaths. She must have a revolving door in the afterlife)

Over the years Marvel, and other comic book companies, have killed off many main characters. Phoenix - dead, only to be brought back to life and reborn. In fact I've lost count of how many times Jean Grey has died. Frank Miller killed off his own creation, Elektra, twice only to see Marvel bring her back, healthy as can be. DC killed off Superman in a blaze of publicity and glory a year later. Off the top of my head I can remember seeing Green Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Warlock, Green Lantern, Spider-Man (yep, before he unmasked recently he died - you might have missed it as it didn't generate the headlines required), Hawkeye, Colossus and a host of others. All dead. All 'alive' now and healthy. The only comic book character I can remember that was killed off and has remained dead is Menthor, from Wally Wood's brilliant T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents.

(Captain Marvel. Died of cancer but apparently got better)

Even Captain Marvel, killed in the one of the most emotional comic book stories ever written and drawn (in my most humble of opinions) is back alive and wondering how, where and when he kicked off originally. I asked Jim Starlin for his thoughts on Captain America as he was the one who wrote and drew the Death of Captain Marvel (and he also killed off the second Robin, Jason Todd, in an equally as memorable Batman story, 'A Death In The Family'). "I understand the title is continuing on after his "death"," says Jim. "Remember Superman dying some years back? Willing to bet Steve Rogers doesn't get any where near Captain Marvel's twenty some odd years of staying dead." Jim, I'd not take that bet no matter what the stakes were because you're right. I have to chuckle a bit though because, as Jim once told me, when he returned to Marvel in the 1990s the powers that be instantly asked him to bring back Captain Marvel only to be told no. Still with his excellent mini-series Marvel: The End, Starlin managed to kill the entire Marvel Universe. Same with Fred Hembeck. He killed everyone at least once. Eventually they all got better though.

(Daredevil. Bullseye vs Elektra! One Wins. One Dies...well, at least until next time around)

So why should we buy into what Marvel is selling now? Short answer - publicity. In that vein I asked a few people who should, and probably do, know better for their views on this recent turn of events. Not everyone is opposed to this recent turn of events. "Back in Steranko's day, media was not as consumed with and reporting of pop culture," says Al Bigley. "That was silly filler stuff for the last 30 seconds of a news broadcast. Don't know what that means, but there it is.

"As far as how Cap will come back, and how he was "assassinated," just read the comic. Some interesting twists for those of us who've been reading it all along, as opposed to Marvel rushing out a cheapie one-shot (no pun intended) to cash in on the slow news day.

"It really has been a good read for the last 3 years or so, in both art and story.."

Paul Ryan drew Captain America in the pages of The Avengers (and Avengers West Coast) and is currently drawing the adventures of another icon, The Phantom. Says Paul, "I don't read comics much anymore so I can't comment on the specifics of the Captain America issue in question. I'm not getting excited about the so called "Death of Captain America". I've seen this before with Superman. Give it some time. Old Wing Head will be back before you know it. To me this seems like just another publicity stunt to increase sales.

"You say that the Kree Captain Marvel is back? Too bad. The Jim Starlin Graphic Novel, "The Death of Captain Marvel" was very poignant and should not be desecrated. Bucky is back too? Is there no end to the mischief playing out in the House of Idea?"

Oh yes, that brings up a point. Bucky.

Bucky was/is Captain America's World War II side-kick and for a while the most enduring death in the Marvel Universe. Bucky was shown to have died when Cap came back to life, in the pages of The Avengers (issue #4) and after a fashion it was always said that the only person to stay dead would be Bucky.

But the recent Winter Soldier storyline showed us that Bucky wasn't dead. He's alive. So who remains dead in the MU? Only very minor, third string characters.

So who's to say that in a few months time some shadowy figure will surface, lurking in the dark, hunting criminals and fighting evil with a shield who'll be revealed as the good Captain? It might not end up that way but something will happen. Bob McLeod is one of those who has a more cynical point of view. "I really couldn't care much less about this," says Bob, "Kill him, give him a sex change, it's all sales gimmicks at the expense of long time fans. New readers don't know Steve Rogers from Steve Reeves."

(Superman. He didn't die, it was just a dream)

Bob Hall takes a different look at things. "Well I hope they don't kill him off for good -- I can't imagine they will," says Bob. "For one thing, his was one of the three or four best outfits to draw in comics. Also, for some reason he seemed to have a true personality. Even mediocre writers seemed to get him right, I suppose because he stood for an America even those of us who are jaded old cynics have embedded somewhere in our consciousness -- one where "right" may have been a moving target, but our heroes were guys who honestly tried to sort it out rather than depending on money and polls to tell them. We sometimes forget that Cap started out as a "little guy" both in strength and humbleness and the Super Soldier Serum was more a metaphor than a reality. The little guy who was there at Anzio and Omaha Beach or Iwo Jima, through courage, became a Captain America. Over the years, courage was the dominant factor in Cap's Character. Writers intuitively or wisely played down the super soldier aspect and focused instead the courage that every-person could aspire to."

"Killing Cap is like burning the American Flag," says Steven Bove, "I'm shocked by what the children at the major comic companies are allowed to do with these icons. Of course you just can't take it seriously." Those sentiments seem to be reflected by Norm Breyfogle when he says, "Haven't read it, but of course he's not dead for good." Writer Will Murray appears in sync with Norm when he says, "Cap was one of my favorite Marvel characters during the Lee-Kirby era, but honestly I feel nothing to hear that he may be dead. He's not my Captain America. And he's probably not really dead....". Long time Hulk artist and comic book icon Herb Trimpe is another of those who feel Cap's 'death' is anything but permanent when he says, "Nobody dies in comics. Just put on hold for a while. If a death were somehow kept permanent, which seems to happen in real life, it would be stupid. Like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Remember, it's all about marketing which = $$$$$. The bottom line."

(Superman. Wasn't really dead this time either, just sleeping)

Writer Neil Hansen* also waded into the debate on the Grand Comic Book Database mailing list with the following, "Speaking as somebody who had the inside scoop from the Superman death back in 1992 -- I wrote extensively for Comics Values Monthly on this one -- this all is just a way to generate new interest in a character. Outside the comics, I'm sure ol' Cap does very well in the licensing aspects of existence. Keep him out of the public eye for a few months or longer, and then bring him back in another media blitz revival. Cap may not be Steve Rogers in the comics, but Flash isn't Wally West or Barry Allen any more. That also doesn't mean the Ultimate version of Cap is dead though anyone can correct me on this one. You have to take these events with a grain of salt.

"Funny thing about Superman's death is that Duracell Batteries had the character potentially advertising for them. That whole campaign was killed when Supes bought the farm during that media blitz. Captain America is too good a character for commercial gain to let languish. Anyway, enough of my diatribe."

Alan Kupperberg drew a few issues of Captain America back in the late 1970s/early 1980s and drew the character for a rather long run in the classic The Invaders, so he does know what he's talking about here. "Call me a cynic," says Alan, "Captain Cynic if you will.

"We have seen this all before. I attended Captain America's memorial service at the Avengers mansion over thirty five years ago, thanks to the reportage of Jim Steranko.

"I think it's a shame that Marvel had to pull an old chestnut like this to capture all that media attention. And the media didn't even fall for it as hard as they did when they hyped the "death" of Superman. This time, the media stories all contained the "death of Superman caveat." That is, that this is all a sales gimmick.

"I don't object to a sales gimmick. I object to an old gimmick. A stale gimmick. It was an antique when we found out that, 'Bobby's not dead, it was all a dream.' I also don't object to the killing and resurrection of any given character in fiction. Again, it is a tried and true convention of fiction. A cliche. Just don't try and tell me that you are doing anything bold or significant. Not when people only remember the sales figures generated, rather than the dramatic or philosophic or political points of your story. And certainly not when you're going to back out of it at the end and restore the situation to anything resembling the status quo.

"So you've got to admire the folks that successfully hype a cliche. And you've got to ask yourself questions about a media that bites the hook every time.

"But why not try to transcend the cliche? How sweet would the coverage be if a new idea, a novel idea had been offered? I know that new ideas are difficult to come up with. I don't know if I've ever had one. So I believe that I can appreciate how daunting is the task I propose.

"But give it a shot guys, huh?"

(The Final Fate Of The Flash? No, not really)

Jesus Antonio Hernandez Rodriguez also took the time out for a more detailed view on things. Jesus comments, "I love the character and is maybe my second best favorite character ever,my first comic was an Avengers one, Steve Rogers aka Captain America being a comic artist as part of the background, being so ethical, etc he was the perfect character you can relate with.

"If you had asked me this question some years ago, I would have been so upset and even felt mad at the killing of the character. But know I understand with the passing of the years that Joe Quesada is doing his job, to call the attention of the media, in fact putting everything in perspective (I still remember when I heard he was taking a Marvel executive position). He has done what he wanted and I am glad of what he is doing.

"My only tiny concern is ....How many more characters do we have to kill to call the attention of a potential market or to sacrifice the character to make it more easy to digest for the general audience and to make it more friendly going for the movie industry? I mean, we know (comic authors, pencilers, inkers, fans, editors, publishers, etc), we are a really hardcore sector that never changes and as you know we normally pass our love for comics to our beloved ones (sons, nephews, nieces etc). We already know that with this publicity helps the numbers sales but it does not really have significant changes in having more people buying comics or recruiting more people after such plots like Capt being killed.

"I still do not know why the bad misconception (from the regular guy outside the field) that comics is not ART, but to be honest I do not want to convince anyone of something I like to do and I like to read. This is just a MERE matter of sales...and I am happy that Joe is doing it because if he were not then someone else would do it, and I prefer a guy who I know loves comics and is smart to know how to make small changes or big ones...

"I will miss Steve Rogers for sure but I know he is coming back... am I right? "

(Robin. 'Can He Possibly Be Alive?' Well, not right at that moment. Brutally beaten by the Joker, blown up and subsequently buried, he eventually recovered from death. Would that we could all be that lucky)

Well that's a damn good question and one that might already have been answered. Go ahead and read Civil War: The Initiative, also out now. There's a telling exchange in that book that seemingly negates the whole death thing. Is Steve Rogers on a floating island somewhere recovering and hiding from his many foes? Is it that Marvel are leaning towards Frank Castle, The Punisher, taking over the mantle of the good captain (like that hasn't been done before...ummm...US Agent anyone)? Is it yet another ruse or just a writer jumping the gun? I guess we'll find out in good time.** As Pete Townshend once wrote, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss". But for now, on the surface of things, it appears that the mighty dollar is ruling the roost. That's never a good sign.

Oh, and don't read the latest issue of Amazing Spider-Man. What happened you ask? Oh, Aunt May got shot and looks like she's going to die, again. At least this time it's not a heart attack...

Oh, and I'm well aware that by writing and publishing this article I'm feeding the Marvel publicity machine. Irony never escapes me.


----------------------------
*Just for the record Neil sent this down when I asked for a short bio as regular readers here might not know him. Gotta love the guy!
"Took art classes with Dick Giordano and Frank McLaughlin the early 1980s in Bridgeport, CT. USA. Editor of Fandom Feature, a magazine originally run by Jim Main. Co-creator and initial editor of Comics Collector back in 1983 with its premiere issue showcasing Superman. Attended writing classes at a DC Comics workshop in the 1980s taught by Paul Levitz in either 1984 or 1985. Former editor of Wally Wood's T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents for Deluxe Comics in 1985. Editor of Comics Values Monthly, which ended sometime in 1993 or 1994, to which there was a memorial special which highlighted the death of Superman. Bachelor of arts in illustration/graphic design from Western CT State University in Danbury, CT USA in 1993."

That's some damn fine credentials there!
**After I wrote this Thad Branco sent me the following:
"Marvel could follow up the Death of Captain America with THIS storyline:
4 heroes emerge, WHO is the TRUE Captain America?
Miss America - Sharon Carter dons the garb of Captain America
Kid America - Patriot (from Young Avengers) takes on the mantle of Steve Rogers and his own grandpa.
The Cyborg Captain America - a new Deathlok emerges with the guise of Captain America and...
New America - the Punisher takes over the role of Captain America.
And what the hell, add a fifth ringer...
Captain America - Bucky drops the bullshit as the 'Winter Soldier' and takes over as CAPTAIN AMERICA!
"Does THAT story sound familiar too?"

Monday, January 22, 2007

Alan Weiss And The Legendary 'Lost' Warlock

How many times do you get the opportunity to revisit an article? Let me answer that with one word, Jimmy, rarely.

I remember writing this article back in mid 2003 after I interviewed Jim Starlin. For me the '70s at Marvel were the top of the tree. When you consider the talent they had working there from about '71 though to '81 you can't help but be amazed: Neal Adams, Alan Weiss, Jim Starlin, Frank Miller, John Byrne, Dave Cockrum (who could design brilliant costumes out of nothing), Steve Leiahola, Frank Brunner, Paul Gulacy, Steranko, Rich Buckler, Doug Moench, Steve Englehart, Steve Gerber, Chris Claremont, Tony Isabella, Walter Simonson, Michael Golden, along with traditional mainstays such as John Buscema, Herb Trimpe, Gene Colan, Roy Thomas, Gil Kane, Jim Mooney, John Romita, Don Perlin, Andru & Esposito - the list is long and stunning (and far from complete here). Hence that time period has always been one I've looked upon with a large amount of fondness. It's why I tend to focus a lot of my attention on people who worked at Marvel at that time (I've lost track of the amount of times I've sent emails to the likes of Tony Isabella asking the most insane questions - to his credit he might look at them and say, "Oh crap, not this idiot again," but he always answers).

There's always been some people on the top of my list that I want to interview - and Starlin was right up there. When he consented to an interview I was over the moon and I was even happier that it came off as well as it did. I still believe Starlin's Warlock Saga wrap up (Avengers Annual #7 and Marvel Two-In-One Annual #2) are amongst the best comics Marvel produced during the '70s for both story and art. Shortly after I posted the interview the 'lost' Warlock pages were sent to me.

I can't recall who emailed me the 'lost' Warlock pages but they came in with a great story indeed and most of that story revolved around how Alan Weiss had left those pages in a cab. Indeed, as you can clearly see, Comic Book Artist #18 (Feb 2002 - an issue I'd not seen that that point) even mentions how Weiss left the pages in a cab. What the heck - it sounded reasonable at the time so I wrote the article up, posted the pages and left it at that.

Flash forward to late 2006. I found myself on the phone to Alan Kupperberg who mentioned this article and how he couldn't help but send the link to Alan Weiss. Kupperberg then mentioned that Weiss was very bewildered about the whole thing because, as everyone knew, he (Weiss) didn't leave the pages in the cab. It was someone else. A few weeks later I found myself on the phone to Alan Weiss and we spoke about the pages in depth, that interview you can find down the page here. All Alan wants is for the record to be set straight, and for the record, I am now also privy as to who exactly did leave the pages in the cab, and I can tell you right here, right now, it wasn't Alan Weiss...

Here's the original article, with one alteration - the part about the cab.


This months comic is one that you've probably never even heard of, let alone seen - the legendary 'lost' Warlock issue.

In the mid to late 1970's both Jim Starlin and Warlock were a hot property. Marvel, and for that matter the comic industry as a whole, couldn't get enough of either and Starlin's massive Thanos/Warlock saga was going through it's second stage. The first Thanos saga had played it's way out in the pages of Captain Marvel, and the second Thanos saga had become intertwined with the Warlock saga, thus forever linking both characters for all time. Starlin began the Warlock saga in the pages of Strange Tales (from issue 178) and it wasn't long before Warlock was featured in his own book. However as rapidly as Marvel had expanded it soon retracted and the result was a lot of high quality books suffered from cancellation. The result of the cancellation was that some major story-lines were unresolved, and creators scrambled to wrap up plot lines as best they could in other books that they might have been worked on at the time - Claremont and Byrne wrapped up Iron Fist in the pages of Marvel Team-Up, Steve Gerber attempted to finish off Omega The Unknown in the pages of The Defenders and Jim Starlin finished the Warlock/Thanos saga in two Marvel annuals - Avengers Annual 7 and Marvel Two-In-One Annual 2.

Before Starlin took the Warlock/Thanos saga to the annuals he co-plotted an issue of Warlock that was slated to be issue 16 of the book. However once the book was cancelled the issue was shelved and partially completed with the idea that it'd become an inventory issue - one of those great Marvel creations. Inventory issues would be written and drawn and then put on the shelf. If an issue wasn't going to make deadline then the inventory issue, usually something that had no continuity within the Marvel Universe, would be slotted in and thus the regular book would continue to appear.

Sadly the pages for what would have been Warlock #16 never appeared - indeed they were never finished. This was due the pages being left in a taxi in New York sometime in the mid to late 1970's. These pages were thought lost for all time until recently when photocopies of some of the pages started to turn up. Sixteen pages in total have been made available, so if you like your Warlock being cosmic, then sit back and enjoy the pages of the Lost Warlock Issue, as co-plotted by Jim Starlin and Alan Weiss, and pencilled by Weiss.

Now here's the 2006 interview with Alan Weiss in which he finally explains, once and for all, what really happened...

ALAN WEISS: There are elements of that job that are going to haunt me, not the least of which is, ‘left in a cab’.
DANIEL BEST: Let’s put it on the record then. Starlin was the one who told me that you left it in a cab.
AW: He just said it like that?
DB: Not exactly like that. He told me that it was his belief that the art was left in a cab.
AW: It was left in a cab, but that’s different to I left it in a cab.
DB: The story is that you did the pencils on the job and somewhere along the line it was left in a cab…
AW: [chuckles] Yeah.
DB: …and you were the last person to hold it.
AW: Well if I had been holding it, it wouldn’t have been lost. Starlin and I had just driven across the country to Detroit and then I flew into New York where I was going to stay with Al Milgrom. When I landed there were a couple of other people there at the airport, one of which was going to help me, you know, “Can I help you? Can I carry anything?” So I grabbed the heavy bags and said, “You get the rest.” Among that rest was a whole thing of artwork. It wasn’t a formal portfolio as such but it was like a cardboard folder which I always carried my artwork in at that time. So he didn’t take that out of the cab. Later that night I’m looking around for it and I said, “So where’d you put the thing with the artwork?”
“What?”

So that was the story. I don’t mention who it was. Not too many of us know that but Alan Kupperberg is one who knows that and Starlin should have known that too. [laughter] Otherwise it sounds like, 'What was wrong with Weiss?’ [laughter] Was he that stoned? Was he that drunk? What? What could it have been? And I’m thinking, no. Listen, I had a lot of stuff in there. I could have been crushed but I was in such a good space that I wasn’t going to identify with it. That whole Warlock issue was in there. I knew there were existent Xeroxes that, if were actually going to get to do the job, we could recreate it from it.

And that’s the other side of the story – that almost happened twice! We were going to do the story for Marvel Fanfare but the book died before it was done, that happens all the time. Then we were going to do it when Starlin brought back Warlock with Craig Anderson in the early ‘90s. About the time it was supposed to happen I got the chance to create my own brand new superhero with Jim Shooter at Defiant. It was ready to go. We had the agreement but I said, “I can’t pass this up, so as soon as I get a chance we’ll do it.” By the time War Dancer was over so was the Warlock book and so was the editor. I never did reproduce it and that’s a shame.

I was very happy with that. I think I was going to ink that myself. I know that Starlin and myself plotted it together so it was cool. That’s the way you want to work, it was literally, I said, “What do you want to write?” and he said, “What do you want to draw?” So we spent and afternoon and put things together and that’s what we got. It was all the things I had in mind, “Oh wouldn’t it be cool if we drew these.” I wanted to do some hobbit like variation and, of course, with Warlock you’re going to put it into space so it’s some sort of gnomes, elves and fairies. And then there’s that one whole page where Warlock is fantasizing and he sees himself as a Richard Corben character, kind of those small proportions, muscular and realistically rendered and maybe four feet high. Then of course he wakes up and there’s the Gulliver’s Travels version of him in chains.

I was very pleased with that story. I liked it. I thought it was a nice touch on Warlock. I’d known Starlin since he first started Warlock. It didn’t occur to me that anything could go missing. I said, “I’m taking the heavy stuff, you take everything else,” which was light so how are you not going to get it? There were a couple of covers in there.

DB: It’s amazing that stuff has never surfaced since.
AW: I have yet to see any of it resurface, but there it is. If I wasn’t in such good shape that would have been the worst omen to come back to New York after being away for three years or so in California, it would have been crushing, but I was in such a non-materialistic state of mind that I just thought, ‘Oh well, it was meant to be.” We never got that issue out.

Sunday, December 24, 2006

The Invaders: Alan Kupperberg Looks Back

The Invaders.

Classic 1970s Marvel. The brainchild of Roy Thomas, the Invaders first 'appeared' in The Avengers #71 (December 1969) as part of another on-going story. Roy then used the characters again in another one-off appearance - the classic Timely trio of Captain America, Namor, the Sub-Mariner and the original Human Torch - as part of the now legendary Kree-Skrull war, which also ran in the pages of The Avengers (issues #91 through to #97). This time Roy even gave them a battle cry, straight out of Timely Comics, 'OK Axis, Here We Come,' although Roy has stated that he lifted the cry from the title of an article written by the late Don Thompson.

From there they sat in the back of Roy's mind until 1974. Finding himself at a slight loss after stepping down as Marvel Comics Editor-In-Chief, Roy revived his concept of a team of super heroes fighting in World War II and sold it to Stan Lee. Thus were born The Invaders. The genesis and the first issues of the title were covered in detail by Roy in the seminal fanzine, Alter Ego, not that long ago (Alter Ego, Vol II, #2) and in his article Roy makes mention of how he came to work with the legendary Frank Robbins on the book. Robbins had a style straight out of the Milton Caniff school and, for this book, was paired with both Vinnie Colletta and then Frank Springer. The Robbins-Springer art team was one of legend: two artists in perfect synch. More than one person failed to warm to the artists though, partly because Robbins, an old time DC artist, refused to change his style to resemble the 'generic' Marvel art of the time (John Buscema, John Romita etc). Robbins art stood out, jarringly at times, and people either loved it or hated it.

Roy Thomas and Frank Robbins stayed with the book until issue #29. After moving to California Roy turned the book over to writer Donald Glut, and, with Robbins leaving, the art chores fell to a relative newcomer on the Marvel scene, Alan Kupperberg. Roy hasn't covered the Glut/Kupperberg issues in any great detail (to my knowledge) and recently I asked him just how it was that Kupperberg was given the book to drawn. Roy's reply was that, "I remember Alan Kupperberg's enthusiasm. He lacked some polish back then, and has developed apace since... but he always told a good story and was good to work with. He, Howard (then Howie) Chaykin, and I used to hang out together some evenings, too, when I'd separated from my first wife." This goes against the (very incorrect) theory that somehow Alan Kupperberg was assigned the art duties due to some form of nepotism. Kupperberg got the job for all the right reasons.

Other than one fill in-issue early in the piece, Kupperberg enjoyed his longest run on a Marvel comic with The Invaders. The run latest from issue #29 through to the book's final issue #41. It's a run that is remembered fondly by readers of Bronze Age Marvels and a run that is crying out to be reprinted. Essential Invaders Vol I and II anyone?

Recently Alan Kupperberg took time out to speak about his Invaders work.

DANIEL BEST: How did you get the job pencilling The Invaders?
ALAN KUPPERBERG: It’s more than likely I approached Roy Thomas and told him that I was looking for work. And he put me onto the Invaders. I had done a few What Ifs? that Roy had edited.
DB: In the letters page of your first issue Roy mentions that you were fresh from What If #8.
AK: Yeah, with Jim Mooney. That’s pretty much how simple it was. I was in the middle of drawing What If? when I moved across the river from Queens, New York, into Manhattan.
DB: Do you know why Frank Robbins left the title?
AK: I don’t know.

DB: Looking at your first issue it surprised me how much the art resembled Robbins.
AK: I think it’s because of Frank Springer. I always thought Frank Robbins was a very weird kind of superhero artist. I like his stuff, have a great affection for it. But in my opinion, his stuff was very rubbery. Weird, flailing limbed figures. That was just his style. And my stuff was very primitive. I was just starting out and didn’t know as much as I’d have liked to know. So that kind of echoed Robbin’s weirdness, but it was just my lack of knowledge. Frank Springer was able to pick up on those different aspects and make them similar.
DB: One thing that strikes me is that you have Captain America’s mouth permanently open, which is something that Robbins did as well.
AK: That’s the Ogden Whitney effect. I don’t recall if I pencilled it that way. That might very well have been something that Frank Springer did.
DB: What did you think of Frank Springer?
AK: I thought he was and is phenomenal. By the way, I figured something out when I was looking at this stuff in preparation for our talk today. I’m always complaining about the inkers I’ve had on my work. And I realised that if the inker wasn’t Neal Adams, I was going to bitch and moan. I think that’s what my problem was. I want Neal Adams! I was spoiled. You see, some of my first jobs had been inked by Neal Adams. And I had been inked by Wally Wood and Dick Giordano before, as well. These guys were doing me a favor, to help me out, to help me get into the business. Or I was working for them, as with Neal and Woody. They inked my work and it looked like their stuff. And those guys are good! And then some of these other inkers come along, and often, they’re just inking my stuff. They do their job and ink what’s there. And what was there could be kind of crappy sometimes. So that’s why I’m complaining. It’s my fault, but I’m blaming the inkers. Damn you all for not being Neal Adams!
DB: Don Glut was the writer of the first issue you did.
AK: Don’s writing was fine. I can’t tell the difference now looking at it, between Don’s stuff and Roy’s. It’s very standard fare. By the way, the cover of that issue was drawn by me.
DB: I always thought the cover was by Ernie Chan?
AK: No, I pencilled it. Ernie Chan inked it.
DB: It’s credited to Ernie Chan in all of the indexes that I’ve seen.
AK: Well, no. It was laid out by me and totally pencilled by me. Especially on the villain’s face, I can see what I did. I have a tendency to sometimes cut the right side of the face short, which I see I did on the villain. And the bad left hand is definitely mine. And I can see, when I look at the right hand of the villain, that the thumb has been re-drawn by John Romita. Actually, I think both the thumbs are re-drawn and re-inked by John Romita.
DB: The Namor figure looks like pure Ernie Chan.
AK: If my memory is correct, I think Ernie re-drew the Namor figure entirely. Also, when I look at the Human Torch, I see that that’s a Johnny Romita Torch.
DB: That used to happen a lot, John Romita re-drawing figures.
AK: That was part of his job. The editors proposed, John Romita disposed.
DB: Did it ever bother you when he did that?
AK: No. Because in my case, whatever he did was invariably better than what had been there to begin with. Those were the conditions that prevailed. Who am I? Michelangelo? I didn’t walk in and say, “This is my vision. Don’t you dare change a line.” No, I was part of a team. We were making company, corporate product. This is what happens. Luckily, if they don’t approve of what you’ve drawn, thank God they don’t fire you. They get a guy to fix it. John was only doing what the editors asked him to do.
DB: How did it feel going onto a team book?
AK: It was fine. The more the merrier. When you’re first starting out, every job is thrilling. I notice when I’m going through this stuff, that with a team book I found very little or no opportunity to interject little bits of personal ephemera on the side. There’s very little space to put it because these panels are packed with characters. There’s no Lucy Ball or Bob Hope waltzing around in these stories. This stuff is naked of that kind of personal adornment. Maybe the best thing about drawing a team book is that it’s a little like repeatedly hitting your self on the head with a hammer. It just feels so damned good when you stop. But really, it’s refreshing to go back and forth. Single hero books and team books work out different sets of artistic muscles, and you need both skills.
DB: The first story is almost the origin of The Invaders. The story spotlights each one of the big three and how they encountered The Teutonic Knight.
AK: Is that so? You see, I haven’t been rereading this stuff. I’ve just been scanning the art, picking up little things, trying to jog my memory.
DB: That brings us to an interesting point; you were drawing Captain America, the Sub-Mariner and the original Human Torch. For a history buff like you that must have been exciting.
AK: Yes it was, quite. It was a lot of fun. I especially enjoyed doing the Sub-Mariner. He’s always a lot of fun to draw. I’m not exactly happy with the way he turned out here. I think Frank Springer changed my drawing a lot on the Sub-Mariner and not to any great effect. But in the abstract, objectively, it’s a decent interpretation of Subby. Springer and I are a very nice combo. It was very exciting to have him ink my work. He gives it a very rich, textured period look.
DB: The next issue, #30, saw your work behind a Joe Sinnott cover.
AK: Once again, that’s from my layout.
DB: It’s credited to Sinnott alone and signed by Sinnott.
AK: I know it is, but I at least laid it out. Yep, that’s mine. I remember doing it. I did the layout for it and Sinnott followed it exactly. As was the custom in those days, if an artist finished a cover from a layout, he’d sign it. So he wasn’t copping my credit, that’s just the way Marvel Comics did it back then. Jack Kirby did dozens of Marvel covers from layouts in the mid ‘70’s. People like Allen Milgrom and Ed Hannigan laid them out for Kirby and other artists. I think Jim Starlin started out doing cover layouts or Spider-Man layouts for John Romita, if my memory is correct.
DB: Again, you had no problem with Joe Sinnott signing the cover as all his own work?
AK: No, that’s the way they did things back then. The finishing artist got a cover layout and signed the finished cover. I did the drawings on 10”x15” layout bond. I had the Invaders logo to work out the spacing needed. And they gave that to Joe Sinnott. Joe then put it on his lightbox and did the finished cover. Beautifully.
DB: It’s a fine looking cover.
AK: It is. I wish he’d fixed some of the figures up a little bit more than he did, but what are you gonna do? It’s fine. The Captain America looks a little stiff and could have been more graceful.
DB: You really went to town on this issue. The first two pages are splash pages.
AK: Yeah, that second page could have worked out better. You’re never going to hear me be very satisfied with my work.
DB: I can see what you’re saying – his head looks out of place.
AK: Yep. Oh, I hadn’t even noticed that. Oh God, oh God, it’s something else! You rat bastard!
DB: I do that so well. I just thought his head looked out of proportion to the rest of his body.
AK: Yeah. Raisin head.
DB: Page 7 of this issue, the last panel, what do you make out of that?
AK: Spitfire punching out the Nazi soldier?
DB: Yep.
AK: What are you asking me?
DB: The eyes are crossed.
AK: I think Frank Springer did that. That doesn’t look like a Spitfire face that I drew. It’s a down shot, and we’re looking up her nostrils. It looks as though Springer made a change in my pencils during inking without re-pencilling it himself first. Pencilling with the brush, as it were. I was getting credit as the penciler but I don’t know if I was even pencilling these. These might have been from my layouts, but I’m not sure.
DB: Springer was given credit as being the ‘inker/embellisher’.
AK: I noticed that. So these were probably from my layouts.
DB: Why would you have only been providing layouts?
AK: Another very common practice back then. If you’ve got a guy like Springer who was super talented and could finish stuff up so well, you take advantage of it. For instance, look at the new villain as opposed to the on-going hero characters. Springer’s inking on Captain America and Sub-Mariner followed the established Robbins/Springer style. Springer changed my pencils to match Robbins. But he didn’t change the villain, which I created. He left that as it was. When Springer didn’t have anything to reconcile it with, he left the pencils alone.
DB: Reading the letters pages in those early issues you find a lot of criticism of the art, but not of your art, there are mainly criticisms of the inkers. The next two issues that you did, #32 and #33, featured a crossover with Thor.
AK: Though it was finished by Jack Kirby and Joe Sinnott, once again, I designed the cover.
DB: You laid out a Kirby cover?
AK: I laid out a Kirby cover. I’ve still got all the material. My layout was printed in the Jack Kirby Collector #29. I’ve still got the original layout that I did. It was a lot of fun because Kirby made my layout look incredible. He followed it exactly, except that my horizon was skewed and he’s got it truly horizontal. Much better. I was trying to do Kirby. I think I knew that it was going to him to finish. So I was trying to do Kirby so that he’d do my Kirby. It doesn’t look like someone laid it out for him. To me, it looks like pure Kirby.
DB: How much of a rush was it to know that Kirby was going to be working from your layout?
AK: It was colossal. Stupendous. It was great. Frank Springer and Jack Kirby; I was surrounded by these great, great talents. If you look, you’ll see that George Roussos coloured the book. Between all those fellows, that’s a lot of talent surrounding me and supporting me in that one book. I liked George a great deal, he was a very kind, gentle man. Very modest. Very quiet. He drew a lot of early Batman stuff for Bob Kane. And Jack Kirby, a creator of Captain America and Thor was drawing them on the cover from my layout. That’s not unlike having shlock film maker Ed Wood direct Lawrence Olivier or Spencer Tracy in one of his pictures. But seriously, it was very exciting to be in that company.
DB: What struck a chord at the time and still does bother people is that they threw Thor into the mix, along with Dr Doom, in order to get the book into a more contemporary setting.
AK: I think that they wanted to draw in more readers, as with everything they did. Anything to try to boost sales. Also, that’s Roy Thomas trying to connect everything up, where possible. That’s Roy’s thing; trying to tie everything together. I think it’s cool, to a certain extent. But as you point out, it can create as many problems as it resolves

DB: The problem I had with it was if Thor met the Invaders in the 1940s then why can’t he remember Captain America or Sub-Mariner when he met them later in those early issues of The Avengers, set in the 1960s?
AK: Ah! That’s very interesting. I wonder if Roy has ever thought about it or addressed it? Well, look on the bright side. It gives the writers of the future plenty of grist for the mill. It’s like a pebble tossed in the water. Each ripple gives rise to the next ripple, Grasshopper.
DB: And why doesn’t Dr Doom recognise all those characters down the track? I think that’s a problem that a lot of people were having at the time and still do.
AK: That one never occurred to me either. Let’s ask Baron Zemo.
DB: You drew a good Thor even then.
AK: I think I drew Thor a bit too skinny, especially when you compare it with the way they draw heroes today.
DB: And you got to draw Hitler.
AK: Yes I did and I tried to draw a better Hitler than most comic book artists seem to manage. Hitler seems to be a very difficult likeness to capture. I believe that John Severin is just about the only guy I can think of who can draw Hitler correctly consistently. But John Severin’s facility with capturing likenesses is unparalleled. Although, I can’t vouch for his shrubbery concepts.
DB: What reference material were you using at the time?
AK: I started putting together my clip files when I was working with Wally Wood. Woody had a huge clip file, or swipe file as some call it. Some guys call it a morgue. And I’ve always had a lot of books on World War II because it is a time period that I’ve always been interested in. So I had a plenty of material on this time period.
DB: Did Marvel supply you anything?
AK: Occasionally. They would supply you with comic book reference. Characters, etc. Individual writers might include reference for the editors to pass on to you. I don’t know if that was the case with any of the Invaders, but sometimes that would be the way it happened.
DB: I suppose there’s enough reference for Hitler around the place.
AK: Oh, sure. There’s an overabundance.
DB: How did you feel about drawing Thor and Dr Doom in a comic that was set in the 1940s?
AK: It was fun to do Thor. I didn’t have any strong emotions about this Doom. It’s not Dr Doom, per se. As an artist, I feel that if the guy doesn’t look like Dr Doom…
DB: Well Victor Von Doom.
AK: This guy is The Mummy. Thor is always fun. I always wondered why a Norse God is wearing a circus costume, but alright. As Groucho said to a Pagliacci clad Walter Woolf King in A Night At The Opera, “Can you sleep on your stomach with such big buttons on your pyjamas?”
DB: Next issue, #34, saw both The Destroyer and the British Invaders. Again, that’s more characters. In issue #35 you only drew five pages, Don Heck drew the rest.
AK: That was a pre-existing job they wanted to burn off. They had pages and I had to fit my pages around them.
DB: How do they approach that with you? Do they say, “You’re only doing a framing sequence because we’re throwing in these left over pages?”
AK: How did I feel about it?
DB: How did you feel and how did they approach you?
AK: They said, “This is what’s happening, we’ve got these pages, here’s a plot for what goes around it, so draw it.” They didn’t ask me. They don’t care how you feel.
DB: How did you feel?
AK: I always preferred to do more work than less work.
DB: It’s not like you’re behind on the job so they have to throw in an inventory issue, so do they compensate you?
AK: No.
DB: So you’re effectively down to a fifth of your earnings for that month.

AK: On that one book. But I was doing a lot of other work as well. I suspect that I filled my time up elsewhere. But then, that’s why they hire freelancers. Now, that was the first issue that wasn’t inked by Springer. Rick Hoberg inked that issue. Rick and I became very friendly. Rick’s a good hearted fellow and he had a wonderful wife. He sent me my first Betamax tapes of the Max Fleischer/Famous Studios Superman cartoons.
DB: Issue #36 saw you paired up with one of Kirby’s inkers, Chic Stone.
AK: Now, between Rick Hoberg and Chic Stone, you can see what Frank Springer was doing with my work. If my Captain America looks different, it’s because Rick and Chic were inking what I’d pencilled. “Rick and Chic.” A fabulous vaudeville song and dance team, as well, by the way. That’s not true, I just made that up. The cover to that issue was laid out by me. I can’t believe I drew a submarine that well. That’s got to be all Joe Sinnott’s doing.
DB: This issue looks more in the style of Marvel than the previous issues, but then I always thought that the work of Frank Robbins and Frank Springer didn’t look anything like Marvel art.
AK: Those were two DC guys as far as I was concerned. The first time I ever saw Frank Springer’s work was on The Secret Six. I loved The Secret Six. And Phoebe Zeit-Geist, as well. I was nuts about The Secret Six, so I always liked what Springer did, as well as Jack Sparling, who followed Springer on that book. I knew both those guys. Frank Springer is a terrific person. He is so “cool.” Just a wonderful, talented man. Sparling was a very nice guy too. I’ve never met Chic Stone, but I have no doubt that he’s a doll baby, as well.
DB: What did you think of his inking over your pencils?
AK: Frankly, I was never that wild about Chic Stone’s inking over anybody else’s stuff, especially not over Jack Kirby. I thought he should have pencilled and inked his own stuff. When I see how Stone inked his own pencils, I get the feeling his heart wasn’t really in it when he was inking over other pencillers.
DB: it’s still good work though and it looked like a good compliment of artists, although page 30, panel 3 is a bit odd.
AK: The Sub-Mariner figure? That’s all me.
DB: It’s like a Gil Kane swipe.
AK: Well, it wasn’t a swipe but it was an attempt to be ‘Gil-ish’ on the gill man. Look – the villain has knocked the wings right off Namor’s feet with that punch. That other figure should have been much bigger and closer to the reader. At that point, my artwork was moving more towards what Jim Shooter required. If you notice, in the first issues I did, I used more big panels and more inset panels. Jim Shooter did not want artists to use inset panels. He thought inset panels confused the readers. So that kind of stuff disappeared at around that time and my work got more Shooterised. I call Shooter comics “doll comics.” I felt that what Jim wanted made all the panels look like little toy action figures posed in a frame. As opposed to occasionally cropping things off artistically. Shooter preferred full figures in every panel so the reader always knows what’s going on.
DB: You said that Robbins and Springer didn’t look like Marvel because they were DC artists, yet in effect it sounds like Shooter wanted a DC approach, circa the mid 1960s.
AK: Ah, yeah. I think that if Curt Swan had come over to Marvel and drawn everything, then Shooter might have been very satisfied. And it would have made me very unhappy, because as much as I adore Curt Swan’s artwork, it wouldn’t have been Marvel comics.
DB: That’s the main criticism that people have when they compare Marvel with DC in the mid to late ‘60s, is that DC was boring and Marvel was exciting and vibrant. Curt Swan’s realism as opposed to Steve Ditko’s expressionism.
AK: Curt Swan was one of my first artistic idols, as well as a very wonderful individual. As an artist, he was the thing to be for me, as a kid in 1962. And then Neal Adams came along. And another light went on in my head. But I always felt that Curt Swan drew real people. Or the closest to being real people, without being dull. Perry White was a real guy. Nothing distinguishing about him, but he was just a real, average guy, like a Sol Harrison-type at DC Comics, a definite individual, but just a guy. Curt’s is very modest, unassuming work, and I mean that in the very best sense of those words. As an artist, he was invisible. The work spoke for itself. There was no personal ego underlaying, or even worse, overlaying the artwork. That’s certainly not the case with Neal Adams. Every single thing that Neal says or draws or does is designed to provoke, to rudely poke you in the eye. “Watch me preen!” Curt served the story, Neal serves himself.
DB: Whereas Marvel had that Kirby approach where everything had to be dynamic and exciting.
AK: Or like Steve Ditko, egocentric and weird. But not at DC, no.
DB: I’ve always said I’d have loved to have seen artists swap companies, just for a month. To see Swan drawing the Fantastic Four, or Romita drawing Batman, or Jose Garcia-Lopez...
AK: Oh yes, Jose Garcia-Lopez at Marvel! I always felt that way, too. I always longed for John Buscema’s Superman. And when you think about it, John Romita was the quintessential DC romance artist for a decade. But he more than managed to make the transition. Jim Mooney did, as well. When Jim went over to Marvel, did he feel it was a revelation to him? Did he feel the move freed him up to cut loose?
DB: Yes.
AK: Because I could not imagine the guy who drew those relatively boring looking Supergirl stories was doing one of my favorite books, Spider-Man. I read and I loved all of those Supergirl stories, but that is very staid material. Suddenly, at Marvel, Jim Mooney blossomed. He was totally capable of doing the more dynamic Marvel approach.
DB: Mooney told DC at the time that he was more than capable of delivering the more realistic style that Neal Adams was beginning to introduce, but they didn’t want it from him. Certainly his later Supergirl stuff was starting to look less like DC.
AK: When DC stopped demanding that the writers stick to at least six panels on every page, Mooney had more room to do stuff.
DB: A few people have said, including Mooney and Romita that the first time they were introduced to the Marvel Method it was very intimidating, but once they got their heads around it they felt very liberated. I still wonder how Swan would have gone at Marvel though.
AK: Well, we’ll never know. It would have been an interesting experiment, though.
DB: Back to the Invaders. By this time you were also drawing the Liberty Legion, so there were more characters that you had to cram into the pages. Moving onto issue #37 you got to sign the cover.
AK: Yep, Kupperberg and Sinnott.
DB: You were being inked by Sinnott on the cover and Stone on the inside – two of Kirby’s best known collaborators. In the case of Sinnott, one of Kirby’s best ever collaborators. How did it feel being inked by Joe Sinnott?
AK: Oh, super. He was the best! Joe Sinnott is King of the slick inkers. When Marvel’s Greatest Comics reprinted Fantastic Four #100 they needed more room on the cover for copy. So I traced off Kirby’s original cover, accounted for the space that they needed and then Sinnott re-inked the cover as he had Kirby’s original. It was beautiful. You can’t tell it’s not Kirby, except for the lousy Human Torch figure I re-pencilled to make room for that extra space.
DB: Both yourself and Rich Hoberg were listed as co-illustrators. What were you doing and what was Rick doing?
AK: The pages between 2 and 10 I did not do. I did page 1 and 2 and then from page 10 onwards.
DB: By this stage you appeared to really be hitting your straps in the book. If you compare the earlier issues with these issues you can see the confidence in your art.
AK: Yes, I was on a steep learning curve at that point. That can be a big benefit to doing a regular monthly book.
DB: Lady Lotus.
AK: Ahhhh. Lesbian.
DB: Why was she a lesbian? Was she written that way?
AK: No, I think I just decided. There were certainly some situations in the plot that pointed me in that direction, but nothing explicit. I think I may have just decided to do it because I was dating a lesbian at that point. I’ve gone with several lesbian girlfriends in my time. We met and they decided to try it straight for a while. It never stuck, though. But it was fun while it lasted.
DB: When you created the visuals for Lady Lotus, what was the process?
AK: Again, I’d have to look at the plot to find out what they asked of me, but I assume they asked for a Dragon Lady type thing. I don’t recall if it was implied or inferred. I wish I had had more Caniff stuff to look at. I wish I’d swiped a lot more stuff. Generally I didn’t swipe much of anything in particular. Maybe my learning curve would have been steeper if I’d swiped stuff and learned from it. You see, working for Wally Wood, I discovered how an artist can become a slave to his swipe file and his Art-O-Graph, if he lets himself. Woody spent more time on rooting around in his files and digging out the “perfect” Hal Foster or Alex Raymond swipe then it would have taken him to draw something new. So I developed a natural antipathy to that whole process. Basically, I really always wanted everything to be out of my own imagination. I’m one of those artists who have never had people assist or ghost them. Never. I never wanted or needed anyone to help me, at least in terms of time. I did pencilling for Rich Buckler, it might not have seen print, but I tried. I ghosted a couple of weeks of pencils for the Spider-Man daily strip for John Romita. I did a lot of layouts for Chaykin, Wally Wood, Neal Adams and all these guys. But I never aspired to get big enough that I’d have to farm the stuff out and become “Mr. Stan Lee Presents,” or something. The whole thing for me was the doing of it. The having done it. And, if I got any pats on the head, they were all mine.
DB: Again, looking at the letters pages, in this issue the claims is that ‘Messers Kupperberg and Springer have the art chores well in hand’. I know you’re self depreciating about your art, but it was praised back in the day.
AK First of all, it’s not uncommon to suck up in order to get your letter in print.
DB: I’m not sure, I’ve seen some letter pages where it all says, “Jeez, the art sucks”.
AK: They must have gotten negative letters like that concerning Neal Adams and John Buscema’s art also. There is, after all, no accounting for taste. But you never know what’s going on behind the scenes, after all. The Invaders was a dying book and I’ll bet the editor was doing his best on the letters pages to encourage enthusiasm. It can work both ways. What if an editor at Marvel is a no-talent son-of-bitch with an axe to grind? And let’s say he feels he’s been “stuck” with Jack Kirby, in the twilight of Kirby’s brilliant career, doing a regular book. And out of sheer spite, this editor prints the letters that put the knock on Jack. But you’ve gotta believe that there were probably just as many or more letters that were pro-Jack. There’s always going to be someone who doesn’t like what you’re doing. I’ll say the same thing I’ve said before. I’m gratified that there were some people whose tastes I didn’t offend. I know I offended my own. It never was what I wanted it to be. In my head, everything I drew was going to be Neal Adams. Sometimes I was aiming to be John Buscema or Jack Kirby. And it was very rarely what I wanted it to be. That’s where I’m coming from. I’ll never be happy because it never is as good as I want it to be. Good enough is not good enough.
DB: Issue #38. That’s the issue with the Don Heck pages in it. Again, the cover is Kupperberg/Sinnott.
AK: Yeah, Sinnott makes everybody look great.
DB: Why was Heck the co-penciller?
AK: I think this was the other half of Liberty Legion #1. On page 6, in the lower left hand panel, I like the way that character’s face came out. Very Atlas Comics. Very ‘50s, Atlas face.
DB: It was the era you were going for.
AK: On page 14, they’re in Chinatown. Look at the Chinese shop sign in the lower left hand panel…
BOTH: Stan Lee
DB: I just saw that.
AK: I just saw it, too.
DB: When it comes to drawing the Chinese writing, did you just make that up?
AK: Totally. Out of my head.
DB: You could be writing swear words in Chinese and not know it.
AK: I hope I did.
DB: In this issue you had the Liberty Legion and the Kid Commandos along with The Invaders. Did you ever sit there and think, “This is too much.”
AK: No, I don’t think so. Not on this job. I remember thinking that about the Blue Devil job that we’ve spoken about, but on this one I don’t remember feeling that way. I was still too new to the business to feel put-upon by anything I was asked to do. It was still a great privilege. It was still a privilege when I was doing the Blue Devil ten years later. But the Invaders were the “real” characters. They were Timely’s original big three. The Blue Devil was a Johnny-come-lately to me.
DB: Drawing Bucky…
AK: That’s very much like drawing Robin to me. I liked it. I like Bucky. The more history a character has, the more I enjoy drawing them. You can’t have much more history in comics than Robin and Bucky.
DB: When were you told the book was going to be cancelled?
AK: I may have known an issue or two in advance. Everyone knew the book was not a great seller. Again, it’s a very long time ago so I don’t recall exactly, but I know that we ganged the last two issues up into one.

DB: Issue #39. It’s back to Chic Stone.
AK: That’s a nice cover though, really decent. The splash page is the next panel after the cover. It’s the same picture, more or less. It’s a one-minute later panel.
DB: You’ve got another Gil Kane moment in there on page 2, panel 3.
AK: Oh, yeah. Well, I could have done it better. But then, that’s all I’m ever going to say about any of my early Marvel work. This job is better than the earlier ones, though. On page 7, I got another lesbian scene going on. I notice that Chic seemed to have taken special loving care on this page.
DB: Were you aware of any feedback with that panel?
AK: No. Not at all. I don’t know if I pointed it to anyone else at the office.
DB: Page 11. The same as the Blue Devil stuff, sometimes your art really shone on pages where there was no superhero action.
AK: Thanks. There’s some decent stuff in there. There’s a big, fat green Buddah in the background.
DB: Did you model that on anyone?
AK: You mean like John Byrne?
DB: You had Union Jack and Spitfire back in the book.
AK: I like the Lady Lotus on the lower right hand side of page #15. That’s a nice shot. That looks professional.
DB: Looking at that panel next to it, the lady looks very Caniffish.
AK: That’s not my doing, per se. I think that’s what happened after Chic Stone finished with it. You’re right, though, it’s very Caniffish.
DB: You’ve never mentioned Caniff as being a big influence on you.
AK: Because he was not. I was almost totally unfamiliar with his work. Steve Canyon ran in the New York Post every day, along with Batman by Al Plastino, then Joe Giella, so I saw it. But in retrospect, I felt that that Steve Canyon wasn’t really primo Caniff by that point. It wasn’t vintage Caniff. I wasn’t really familiar with his stuff and there weren’t very many Terry and the Pirates reprints back then. Woody Gelman was just starting to put some of that material back into print. If vintage Milton Caniff, Noel Sickles or Roy Crane material had been available to me when I was a kid, I might have blossomed in a whole new direction. They had the advantage of coming up in a mainly black and white medium. I came up more influenced by the strictly four-colour medium, and couldn’t or didn’t learn to appreciate the use of blacks as well as I would have liked. So anything Caniff-like that happens in my art is probably a happy accident or the influence of an older artist working over my stuff. There was almost no one more influenced by Caniff than Frank Robbins. There’s some decent action on page 17. Not Kirby dynamic, but again, I see a problem. The sizes of the figures are too similar in all the panels. Other than that though each individual panel is not bad.
DB: Roy brought back Baron Blood with this issue and the last page is very impressive.
AK: The last page? Oh, there’s a vampire on it. Yes. Again I didn’t achieve what I was going for but it was close enough.
DB: What were you going for?
AK: I don’t know how to explain it in words, but in my head I knew what I wanted. If Neal Adams or John Buscema had done it -- . Actually this is more a Buscema-type pose than a Neal. It could have been clearer. It doesn’t read very well visually. The colour muddied it up and I could have done it more clearly. Once again, it’s not what I saw in my head.
DB: Did you ever do a book that came out as you saw it in your head?
AK: Some of the Evil Clown stuff. A few stories for Cracked Monster Party. If I can’t ink it, it’s not going to be even close to what’s in my head. When you ink your own work, if there’s something you screwed up on the first pass, you’ve got an opportunity, whether or not you take it, to fix things when you ink it. A superhero book? Tony DeZuniga inked a Tarantula origin story that I did for Roy Thomas at DC Comics, that came out very close to what I thought was a good job. Gray Morrow inked a couple of pages of mine for the New Universe book, Merc. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. What a thrill. The man was incredible. Some of my later jobs, when I approached what I hoped was an understanding what was good work, pleased me. Jim Fern inked a couple of my Spider-Man stories, and that made me very happy. Jim Fern is a terrific artist. But by and large I was never satisfied with my pencils.
DB: Issue #40.
AK: That figure of Baron Blood, the vampire on the splash page, I swiped that.
DB: Where from?
AK: It looks like John Buscema to me, but from where, specifically, I don’t remember. I don’t even remember swiping it, I just recognise it as a Buscema swipe. It’s not my stuff.
DB: You did do a good Baron Blood. The vampire is, I suppose for the lack of a better word, vampiric.
AK: Who created it artistically? Robbins?
DB: I think it was, because he first appeared early in the run.

AK: I see on page 2, the lower left hand panel, that’s another swipe with Baron Blood superimposed on it, and again it looks like a Buscema to me.
DB: Why were you swiping at that stage?
AK: I don’t know specifically, unless I saw something I really liked and wanted to use it. Maybe I tried to draw something that I couldn’t pull off and in desperation pulled out that Buscema stuff and copied it. But these are some of the rare instances where I did do that. Maybe even on the lower right hand panel of page 3. That also might be a Buscema swipe.
DB: It comes across quite well.
AK: It’s not a whole swiped panel, just a few figures.
DB: The splash page…
AK: I’ve been looking at that for a week on the web site and not liking the Japanese soldier I drew.
DB: Why?
AK: Actually looking at it now it’s not bothering me that much, but if I had a chance to do it over again I’d do it differently. It looks a bit flat to me.
DB: The figure looks very Caniffish.
AK: I think that would be Chic Stone’s manipulation of it. I was certainly not doing it, at least not on purpose. One of my problems, speaking of Caniff and Sickles and their masterful use of blacks, is that I always felt that my own use of blacks was not organic. I often tried to place blacks in my panels after I’d composed the panels, especially back then. And that can be a very difficult thing to do, after the fact. Caniff almost seemed to work from the black out. It seemed as though he started with the blacks and worked out towards the light. I tried to “spot blacks,” as artists say, but Caniff “spotted lights.” Caniff was a mighty sculptor, I was a mere sketcher. I was mainly doing layouts in the beginning. It was more like a colouring book type of thing. By and large, blacks are not the main thing on your mind if you’re just doing layouts. When I began doing full pencils, I tried to work the blacks in primarily for contrast, in order to make the artwork pop. I worried about the blacks afterwards, instead of it all being an original conception. It was an afterthought, almost. I’m exaggerating the process slightly in order to make my point, but that always bothered me about my work. But I’ve been working on it, and I’m a lot happier with what I’m doing now.
<DB: Page 10.
AK: Ah! More lesbians. Or at least, sexy stuff.
DB: How did that get by the editors? That’s a fairly strong panel for the time.
AK: I guess it was sort of pushing the envelope. But that’s what I drew and there were no changes made. It’s actually no more revealing than a low cut evening gown.
DB: The differences between that scene and a low cut evening gown is that she’s wearing a gown. In this scene…
AK: She’s only wearing a smile.
DB: Exactly. I guess it’s no different from the lesbian scene in the earlier issue. On the next page the girls faces are Caniffy.
AK: That’s nice of you to say, but again it’s probably an accident. Pictures of the Dragon Lady were probably not hard to come by, and I like Caniff’s work, so thanks. Whatever the reason it got that way, if you liked it then it worked out. I notice on page 17 of this issue. one of the first personal things I stuck in the Invaders, or had a chance to stick in, is the air-traffic controller. I think I was attempting to draw my father. I frequently cast my family in stories.
DB: This was the penultimate issue.
AK: Yes.
DB: And they brought back the Warrior Woman and Master Man. I always thought Warrior Woman was a lesbian.
AK: She looks it. She’s got a super Axis!
DB: Why is it in comics that the male villains are always dressed head to toe but the women are all in bondage gear?
AK: Gee, I don’t know, Daniel, I can’t figure it out.
DB: The next issue was the last and then it was all over.



AK: Looking at my accounts book it says ‘17 pages, Invaders 41’. That means it was not planned as a double sized issue. I got the assignment on October 11th, for Invaders #41. I got paid $425 – that’s for the entire book. On November 18th I received the plot for Invaders #42. So they were ganged up after the fact. Now that I look at the splash page I remember feeling at the time that this issue I had made a certain breakthrough. Whether it’s apparent or not I can’t say, but I really felt that I had made a breakthrough. I think Shooter had a problem with Captain America figure on the splash page. Something about the legs not being even. They’re fine here, as a matter of fact.
DB: It was a double sized issue and had one of your best pieces of art – the double-page splash at the end with all the characters that’d appeared in the book from the start to the finish.
AK: Yeah, I think they needed to fill up two extra pages, that’s why that was done. I see that the House Of Lotus in that issue has my then street address, 225. I lived only five blocks away from Marvel Comics, so I could always be there in literally five minutes when they needed me. That was another reason I got a lot of work, because I was there.
DB: That was it, the book was finished.
AK: Goodbye book, goodbye.
DB: You had a good run on it.
AK: Yeah, it was fun.
DB: Where did you go from there?
AK: The next book I did was The World Of Krypton mini-series, which I laid out for Howard Chaykin. Then after that I did What If? #18 and then after that I did a Captain America story.
DB: You bounced around a bit after that.
AK: Yeah. The next Marvel book I did was the 1980 Marvel Two-In-One Annual, which I wrote as well as pencilled. That was inked by Pablo Marcos.
DB: Did it bother you that it finished and you weren’t given another regular assignment?
AK: The times that I spent being on regular books were very rare. Most of the time I was bounced around. At Marvel, the only times I was on regular books was on Thor and the Invaders. I did the Ice Man mini-series. I was almost regular on Amazing and Spectacular Spider-Man, but I was never officially assigned either book. I did a lot of issues, but I was never told it was my book. I did a lot of issues of The Defenders but it was never my book. So it wasn’t ongoing series security that I had, but I made out fine because I did a lot of work. At the same time, I was working on The Invaders I was working for Crazy Magazine, I was also working on the Howard The Duck daily syndicated strip and ghosting The World Of Krypton for Howard Chaykin. I did issue #279 of Thor while I was working on the Invaders. I did an unpublished fill-in issue of Nova, which was later published as an issue of Iron Man. I did an issue of Dr Strange during that same time and I did an issue of Marvel Two-In-One, which I also plotted and Roger Stern scripted. I did What If? #19 in-between the last two issues of The Invaders.
DB: A lot of that stuff isn’t on your checklist or in your official credits.
AK: I ghosted a lot of stuff for Chaykin which is probably not on my list. I did an issue of Legion Of Superheroes and a few Enemy Ace short stories for Howard Chaykin. I did a lot of obscure stuff.
DB: Does it bother you that because you ghosted for various people you never got full credit?
AK: It doesn’t bother me; it’s just the way things are. However, I don’t miss the chance to tell anybody about it when it comes up. I don’t think Chaykin was very pleased at the time, though. I ghosted Star Wars #10 and I let it be known around the Marvel offices. And when they printed the issue, they stuck in this big “layout” credit for me. And my name is lettered with the biggest “point size” in the box. I was also the person with the longest name so I needed space in the box. It always bothered me that I had a long name, I felt that it was immodest that my name had to take up more space than that of Stan Lee.

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Interview is © copyright 2006 Alan Kupperberg and Daniel Best and cannot be reproduced without express permission. If you wish to quote this interview then reciprocal/relevant links must be provided.

This is part II in a series. Part I can be found here.

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Sunday, December 17, 2006

Solarman: An Average Failure

So tell me, what's wrong with this comic? It's one of the more obscure titles from the Marvel line of comics, and one that pretty much everyone associated with has forgotten about, or chooses to forget about. Selective memory perhaps? Of course it is.

Solarman boasted some incredible talent for such a maligned book. Written by Stan Lee and with art by Jim Mooney and Dennis Janke on issue #1, and Mike Zeck and Nestor Redondo on issue #2, this was a book that should have scaled the heights. But sadly it didn't. So exactly why did it fail?

Solarman was created and funded by David Oliphant. The idea was that the comic book Solarman would be the start of a new toy series and a franchise that would remain outside of the Marvel Universe. Also promoted was a cartoon series that got as far as storyboards and layouts for the season and at least one episode, the pilot show, was completed and screened. Clearly the other show being developed at the time, The X-Men, was a better bet for Marvel. There's an ad at the end of issue #1 which shows the true nature of the concept - toys, posters and a Solarman Collectors Club. Clearly it was all systems go and a quick search of the internet turns up a Solarman book, written by Oliphant, and some raw details on the toy side of things. Back to the ad. The first line of the ad shows where Marvel was intending to take the series; "Solarman will be on TV very soon and become and internationally known character."

So what did go wrong? Was it a case of bad art? Funnily enough there were no other ads in the comic other than a Marvel subscription page and the standard ads on the inside covers and the back cover. That left thirty pages of art, unusual for the time, but if ever anyone could pull that off on time it was Jim Mooney.

At the time, 1989, Mooney was nearing the end of his career at Marvel. He'd started with Marvel in the late 1960s and had been working as a comic book artist, steadily, since 1940. Jobs had dried up, he'd come off a stellar run on the Spectacular Spider-Man and was looking for jobs to do. Marvel, in particular Jim Shooter, had decided that Mooney wasn't an artist designed to take the company into the future, and was attempting to pry him out, as they'd done previously with such established talent as Dick Ayers, Gene Colan, Tony Isabella, Jim Starlin, John Byrne, George Perez, Frank Miller and others. There'd been a mass exodus of talent from Marvel to DC (something I'll write about later this week actually) and those who hadn't left were being encouraged to go. Sadly Mooney was considered to be old school by Marvel and once his contract expired they let him go with the words 'retire' ringing in his ears. Luckily Mooney ignored the advice and went onto another golden age for him, working at DC, Claypool and other companies and is still producing art to this day. Shows what the editors knew then.

Dennis Janke was anything but a hack as well. He'd been around for years by this stage and was, and still is, well respected within the industry. Janke's inks were a perfect compliment to Mooney's art, and if there were any concerns that Mooney would look dated then Janke eliminated them completely. The art looked as modern as anything Marvel was producing. Having said that the art is slightly confusing and out of odds with the dialogue, no great surprise really as Stan Lee would have inserted his dialogue into the books after the art had been completed. Some scenes look like they would easily fit into a serious books, at other times Mooney draws Solarman in a style reminiscent to his work on Thundercats. However if Solarman was designed to be a response to Superman (same power source and similar powers, as Superman had been recently relaunched by John Byrne) then who better to draw it than Mr Supergirl himself, Jim Mooney?

Along with supplying the cover art, Mike Zeck took over the art chores for issue #2. Here lies the first problem - issue #1 is cover dated January 1989, issue #2 is cover dated May 1990. That's a gap between issues that Image Comics would have been proud to have had. By the time issue #2 came out any momentum was completely gone and the book might as well been a first issue. Zeck is a superstar artist. Best known for his work on The Punisher, Zeck had gone from strength to strength and was considered to be one of the best artists in the Marvel stable at the time. His inker/finisher on the book, Nestor Redondo, was also anything but a hack. One of DC's best horror/suspense artists, Redondo had a genuine following and he had enhanced that following at Marvel where he cemented his status by supplying stellar work on fantasy titles such as Conan and Red Sonja. So if it wasn't the art, then what was it?

The writing? Now we're getting somewhere. The Stan Lee of the late 1980s couldn't hold a candle, writing wise, to the Stan Lee of the late 1960s, or even the early to mid 1970s. Stan Lee created some of the most interesting, and poignant stories of his time, and a large portion of the success of Marvel Comics lays at his feet. Along with Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and others, Lee created the Marvel Universe. However he didn't create Solarman. Stan had stopped writing comic books in the mid 1970s and outside of a few text pieces hadn't written a complete book since then. Writing requires muscles to work, you have to exercise those muscles or like anything, if you don't, you lose the ability and ease in which you operate. Stan, for all his good intentions, was hopelessly out of touch and his writing, although clearly geared towards younger readers, is sadly dated and difficult to follow. At times the dialogue doesn't match up with the action being portrayed and the confusion as to if this was happening within the Marvel Universe or without is very prominent with two sequences.

In the first issue the main character longs to 'work for Marvel Comics'. In the second issue he presumably is working for Marvel as he name checks the editors of the actual book (Bob Budiansky and Tom DeFalco) and mentions how he's swipe a Dr Doom figure from 'Buscema'. Presumably this is John Buscema, although the swiped figure looks like pure Mike Zeck, an artist who is as removed from Buscema as anyone could be.

By putting real life Marvel staffers into a comic book that also features the fictional Marvel characters (Dr Doom shows up on the next available page) makes for a book that doesn't know it's true identity. Zeck and Redondo do their usual excellent work here, given the material they have to work from. There was no chance of Mooney drawing issue #2, by this stage he was gone from Marvel and already working at DC, probably a good thing.

I once asked Jim Mooney about the Solarman series and he said he couldn't remember a thing about it. It was just another job to him, as I presume it was to a lot of people including Zeck, Janke, Redondo and even Stan Lee. I actually own some of the original art to Solarman, but to date I've not seen any art from the Zeck/Redondo issues. I suspect that Zeck would rather it'd all go away and no-one would remind him of a failure that didn't even reach the level of being spectacular.