View Full Version : Religion-tribalism-war
GOTT MIT UNS
2nd January 2010, 02:11 PM
Dear friends at AFA Forums,
It is very interesting to read about our different paths to secularism/atheism/non-theism.
I started to have my doubts about almighty god(s) under the influence of my godmother - the survivor ("prisoner" nr.25541) of the KL Auschwitz death camp, which was run by the SS guards - mostly German and Austrian christians. They had the inscription GOTT MIT UNS on their belt buckles.
But it was many years later in my early adulthood when I visited the Balkans in 1995 and where I witnessed first-hand how religion and nationalism turned not only neighbour against neighbour but also relative against relative. To my horror one of the chief strategic targets for waring parties were not only people of different faiths but also...their houses of worship (orthodox /catholic churches/muslim mosques) and even cemeteries.
Later I worked as a volunteer with the Balkan war refugees in Australia in the 90s. Surprisingly calling myself (rather expediently) "a religiously-non-affiliated person" made my humanitarian work with those traumatized and divided by war and religion people relatively easy.
I realized than their pathological animosity towards each other was stronger than contempt for "people without any faith".
It was I, "non-god-botherer" (it is the way I prefer to call myself) who organized first joint English classes for Orthodox Serb and Macedonian, Muslim Bosnian and Catholic Croat (predominantly women) refugees in Sydney.
Their tragic and horrific testimonies had a profound impact on me. They also made me think the way I had never thought before. I could not comprehend that religious identification was still an underpinning factor in a tribal conflict in Europe on the verge of 21 century.
With great difficulty I refrained from expressing my opinions on the matter publicly in the name of political correctness.
The books by Tamas Pataki, Sam Harris, Michel Onfray, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins allowed and helped me to approach "a concept of god" from more rational, intellectual and scientific point of view.
But I think after "the overhaul" by Pat Condell quite a while ago I had never looked back and finally stopped being sheepish in expressing my thoughts and opinions about religion openly.
I knew I was ready for the sobering whack with the Pat's "sledge hammer". Alas, I am sure that many people I know (including my own family members) would not survive such shock-therapy.
I am very optimistic about the future of our movement. I think that promotion of popular science coupled with intelligent humour will eventually win the young generations over to our side, towards independent/critical thinking and rational humanism.
I really enjoy visiting this site and I am very proud to become a member here.
All the best,
GOTT MIT UNS
P.S.
Am I the first new member in 2010 ?
Praxis
2nd January 2010, 02:33 PM
P.S.
Am I the first new member in 2010 ?
Sadly no. You were beaten by a fruitloop Creationism enthusiast.
Welcome to a familiar name from RDF ;) (I'm Aesthetic Atheist over there, keeper of the Convention thread).
I hope you enjoy our forum here. The pace is a little slower, which is actually quite relaxing I find) and there's some really good people here.
Cheers.
davo
2nd January 2010, 03:09 PM
Hi GMU welcome to the forums :)
The nazi's left a major impact on the whole of humanity, and you starkly represent the religious aspect of the movement with using the name and the image. I bet it does create discussion.
I can see where you are coming from with this, and I think it is very much an 'in your face' statement to those that deny the religiousity of the nazi movement. I personally would not want to continually have my online life and discussions focus around as my 'avatar', but each to their own. I can see it has always been a major part of your life and one you cannot escape, that has touched you and yours deeply.
have fun on the forums.
GOTT MIT UNS
4th January 2010, 12:01 PM
Just when I thought that the controversy surrounding the Danish cartoons was forgotten and buried by the media I found this piece of very disturbing news:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/02/denmark.cartoonist/index.html
Hospitable friendly Denmark is one of the most secular countries with the highest intake if refugees in Europe per capita.
wearestardust
4th January 2010, 03:37 PM
Hello and welcome.
It sounds like you have had some 'interesting' and thought-provoking experiences. I have for a while been of the view that the Balkans, rather than the middle east, is one of the best exemplars in recent history of what evil religion can bring.
Also, like you, as an aside, I also found Hitchens, Dawkins et al valuable not to turn me to atheism but to help me organise my thoughts on the issue.
Btw, and I mention this so you don't get blind-sided by some smartarse theist trying to trip you on trivia: that would be a Heer (army) belt buckle in your avatar. The use of the motto "Gott mit uns" by the WWII German army dates back to the early 18th Century when it was adopted by the elector-count Frederick I as King-in-Prussia - Prussia later forming the core of the later German state, hence the continuity with the 3rd Reich. The term has, of course, a much more ancient lineage than that. The SS belt buckle had the motto Meine Ehre heisst Treue (my honour is loyalty). But that doesn't affect your key point, and indeed strengthens it: Gott mit Uns was worn by the Kaiser's soldiers as they tramped east and west, encouraged by the Kaiser to be like the huns, the Kaiser wanting to achieve Germany's 'place in the sun' (ie the ability to rape Africa with the same success as Britain, Belgium, France and Italy); not to mention the wars of Frederick II.
GOTT MIT UNS
4th January 2010, 09:30 PM
Hello and welcome.
It sounds like you have had some 'interesting' and thought-provoking experiences. I have for a while been of the view that the Balkans, rather than the middle east, is one of the best exemplars in recent history of what evil religion can bring.
Also, like you, as an aside, I also found Hitchens, Dawkins et al valuable not to turn me to atheism but to help me organise my thoughts on the issue.
Btw, and I mention this so you don't get blind-sided by some smartarse theist trying to trip you on trivia: that would be a Heer (army) belt buckle in your avatar. The use of the motto "Gott mit uns" by the WWII German army dates back to the early 18th Century when it was adopted by the elector-count Frederick I as King-in-Prussia - Prussia later forming the core of the later German state, hence the continuity with the 3rd Reich. The term has, of course, a much more ancient lineage than that. The SS belt buckle had the motto Meine Ehre heisst Treue (my honour is loyalty). But that doesn't affect your key point, and indeed strengthens it: Gott mit Uns was worn by the Kaiser's soldiers as they tramped east and west, encouraged by the Kaiser to be like the huns, the Kaiser wanting to achieve Germany's 'place in the sun' (ie the ability to rape Africa with the same success as Britain, Belgium, France and Italy); not to mention the wars of Frederick II.
Thank you very much for very kind greetings,
I really appreciate your (very well researched) explanation reg. the origins of that infamous German/Nazi belt buckle.
I am surprised that Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens do not use the belt buckle in their lectures/debates/key-note addresses to counter very frequent, shameless, false claims that the Nazi movement was atheistic.
Maybe a bit off topic. I desperately look for BBC 2 part doco "The Hallelujah kids" showed on ABC TV in the mid 90s. It is an absolute masterpiece. My queries at ABC, BBC customer departments and extensive google search were unsuccessful.
Do you have any advice ?
Do you know any atheist site/DVD library/atheist DVD exchange which would have it ?
Regards,
Gott Mit Uns
davo
5th January 2010, 09:37 AM
I am surprised that Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens do not use the belt buckle in their lectures/debates/key-note addresses to counter very frequent, shameless, false claims that the Nazi movement was atheistic.
Probably because the claim is well covered everywhere, there's nothing really to counter with it as only ignorance has people still use it.
Dawkins, Hitchens etc tend to focus on realities rather than total ignorance on the whole.
A good page, you have probably seen : http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
wearestardust
5th January 2010, 01:01 PM
Thank you very much for very kind greetings,
I really appreciate your (very well researched) explanation reg. the origins of that infamous German/Nazi belt buckle.
I am surprised that Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens do not use the belt buckle in their lectures/debates/key-note addresses to counter very frequent, shameless, false claims that the Nazi movement was atheistic.
I think the whole ‘was Hitler an atheist or not’ (or ‘was Stalin an atheist’) is both problematic and in any case irrelevant. I’ll give my view. I know others disagree, at least in terms of my diagnosis of Hitler’s theism or otherwise.
It is often pointed out that Hitler was a Catholic. Not clear how this is relevant; so was I. I would have been inclined to say that Hitler was not, in practical terms a theist; on reflection, which I wouldn’t have said he was a Christian, he did seem to have supernaturalist views about his and Germany’s destiny.
The problem is that even if it could be shown that Hitler was a supernaturalist, or even a Christian, (i) it is not entirely clear that he went to war for the sake of religion, and more importantly (ii) there’s still the quite unequivocally atheist Stalin and Mao.
But it doesn’t matter. All of the horrors done in the name of religion were done, tautologically, in the name of religion. Stalin, Mao, and (let’s for the moment include) Hitler may all have been atheists, but they didn’t commit their atrocities for the sake of atheism – they did them for other ideologies.
The upshot is that even if one concedes that some atheists have done some really really terrible things, they weren’t for the sake of atheism: thus theists still have a question to answer about evil done for religion, but the question can’t readily be flipped around and pointed at atheists.
Maybe a bit off topic. I desperately look for BBC 2 part doco "The Hallelujah kids" showed on ABC TV in the mid 90s. It is an absolute masterpiece. My queries at ABC, BBC customer departments and extensive google search were unsuccessful.
Do you have any advice ?
Do you know any atheist site/DVD library/atheist DVD exchange which would have it ?
Regards,
Gott Mit Uns
Have no idea. Are you sure you have the title right? As you say, it doesn't even seem to come up on google.
GOTT MIT UNS
5th January 2010, 10:24 PM
I think the whole ‘was Hitler an atheist or not’ (or ‘was Stalin an atheist’) is both problematic and in any case irrelevant. I’ll give my view. I know others disagree, at least in terms of my diagnosis of Hitler’s theism or otherwise.
It is often pointed out that Hitler was a Catholic. Not clear how this is relevant; so was I. I would have been inclined to say that Hitler was not, in practical terms a theist; on reflection, which I wouldn’t have said he was a Christian, he did seem to have supernaturalist views about his and Germany’s destiny.
The problem is that even if it could be shown that Hitler was a supernaturalist, or even a Christian, (i) it is not entirely clear that he went to war for the sake of religion, and more importantly (ii) there’s still the quite unequivocally atheist Stalin and Mao.
But it doesn’t matter. All of the horrors done in the name of religion were done, tautologically, in the name of religion. Stalin, Mao, and (let’s for the moment include) Hitler may all have been atheists, but they didn’t commit their atrocities for the sake of atheism – they did them for other ideologies.
The upshot is that even if one concedes that some atheists have done some really really terrible things, they weren’t for the sake of atheism: thus theists still have a question to answer about evil done for religion, but the question can’t readily be flipped around and pointed at atheists.
Have no idea. Are you sure you have the title right? As you say, it doesn't even seem to come up on google.
Thank you for a quick reply.
1)One thing is certain: Hitler and Stalin (self-appointed almighty gods themselves) turned their totalitarian and IRRATIONAL ideologies into state religions.
Most religions are totalitarian by nature with a strict unquestionable Utopian beliefs/system/ideology based on fear, high priests, theatrical , over-the-top intimidating pageantry and all necessary semi religious paraphernalia.
After all Stalin was a former seminarian.
2)Here is the link to the documentary in question:
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s676991.htm
It is a must see 2 part movie.
Regards,
Gott Mit Uns
Praxis
6th January 2010, 04:16 AM
Hi guys - very interesting discussion.
I think we might need to split this thread off into its own discussion thread shortly, given it's veered right away from welcome's and hi there's :)
Just letting you know.
Cheers.
wearestardust
6th January 2010, 07:35 AM
Oh No! The Judean People's Front!
Praxis
6th January 2010, 08:19 AM
Oh No! The Judean People's Front!
Bugger off! We're the People's Front of Judea! (not the Suicide Squad though ;))
GOTT MIT UNS
6th January 2010, 01:35 PM
Dear Madamme,
I do not mind splitting my threads.
My posts are really a mixed bag... so your suggestion makes sense.
Religious wars and religious tribalism brought me the atheist path hence the title of my first post.
Please, inform us about any changes you intend to undertake.
Gott Mit Uns
GOTT MIT UNS
7th January 2010, 07:28 AM
Hello and welcome.
It sounds like you have had some 'interesting' and thought-provoking experiences. I have for a while been of the view that the Balkans, rather than the middle east, is one of the best exemplars in recent history of what evil religion can bring.
Also, like you, as an aside, I also found Hitchens, Dawkins et al valuable not to turn me to atheism but to help me organise my thoughts on the issue.
Btw, and I mention this so you don't get blind-sided by some smartarse theist trying to trip you on trivia: that would be a Heer (army) belt buckle in your avatar. The use of the motto "Gott mit uns" by the WWII German army dates back to the early 18th Century when it was adopted by the elector-count Frederick I as King-in-Prussia - Prussia later forming the core of the later German state, hence the continuity with the 3rd Reich. The term has, of course, a much more ancient lineage than that. The SS belt buckle had the motto Meine Ehre heisst Treue (my honour is loyalty). But that doesn't affect your key point, and indeed strengthens it: Gott mit Uns was worn by the Kaiser's soldiers as they tramped east and west, encouraged by the Kaiser to be like the huns, the Kaiser wanting to achieve Germany's 'place in the sun' (ie the ability to rape Africa with the same success as Britain, Belgium, France and Italy); not to mention the wars of Frederick II.
I dedicate this poem by Henk Harmsen to all my Balkan Christian and Muslim friends who fell victims to religios and nationalistic manipulation:
Before I forget you, Sarajevo,
I would forget my right hand
Open your heart for Sarajevo
snow flocks fall on blood soaked streets
in the heart of Sarajevo
guns spit fire, hate and death
from the hills of Sarajevo-
Cain kills his brother
while we all sit by and watch
don’t loose your heart in Sarajevo
New York, Belfast, Sebrenica,
Auschwitz, Jerusalem
ethnic fights, religious war:
the legacy of Abraham-
hate-filled minds will never ease
unless we’ll force them to
don’t loose your heart in Sarajevo
brotherhood of men will flow
from the hills of Sarajevo
enemies will dance, arm in arm,
on the streets of Sarajevo-
war is over if you want it,
war is over now
open your heart for Sarajevo
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